Parson's or Melleri: Opinions, please!

jamest0o0 said:
@Motherlode Chameleon btw I didn't mean to attack you, I just meant I constantly see posts saying why they aren't for beginners. But then don't see much info offered by people. I've only kept chameleons for about a year myself(I helped with a veiled years and years ago). I have kept tons of other reptiles, aquariums, etc. I get what people intend by withholding husbandry practices to deter the inexperienced, but I feel this doesn't work. The people that read up on care to begin with aren't the ones to worry about, it's the people that walk into a pet store see a veiled, think it's cool and buy it. I'd like to see chams stay expensive to limit this from happening. The person that is worried about how to properly supplement a Parsons is most likely going to give their all for husbandry, and IMO deserves a chance at the animal if they have the resources.

On a side note, WC animals really bother me. Quotas on living things just feels so slimey and wrong, but I understand the necessity for it if we want to have CB. I just don't think a WC should be purchased unless there's an intention to breed.
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No worries the Calumma parsonii parsonii situation is a can of worms. The prevention of beginners thing is just to prevent keepers or people and to have them only buy Calumma parsonii parsonii when they are prepared and save those keepers a lot of pain.

Mawtyplant said:
I agree with Joe .. Personally I think that if you get the impression that there is more cb melleri it is because the number of CH is higher (because of the importation of pregnant female ) but real CB .. I have not seen tons and it seems virtually impossible to find .. contrary to the parsons. Mellers are difficult to keep because of their import condition .. but also in the long term (after 1 year) deficiencies seem to settle and the health problems begin. The challenge is twofold. Also, just like Joe, I wonder .. but where are they importing the latest years ?! here in canada we have not the mozambique to fill the times of tanzania, presently the number of Melleri still alive or in health is rather reduced .. I never had a Parson on the other hand therefore impossible for me to judge which is more difficult to keep. Has anyone ever had the two here?
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The regularly captive breeding of Calumma parsonii parsonii is a new thing here in the USA. From 1995-2002 Calumma parsonii parsonii were bred only a half dozen time. From 2002-2012 there were no captive breeding of Calumma parsonii parsonii in North America to best of my knowledge. From 2013- now there has been ~a dozen or over a dozen. While Trioceros melleri I have seen (about seen) captive bred or captive hatched clutches from 1995-now of 2-3 clutches about every 2-4 years. With that model when you go 2 clutches of Trioceros melleri every 2 years (accurate numbers 2017-1995=22 years 22/2=11 11*2=22 clutches). There has been more Trioceros melleri produced. Things are changing. I have kept both Calumma parsonii parsonii and Trioceros melleri.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
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@Mawtyplant asked... "Is healthy cb parsons are harder too keep than healthy melleri?"... I've never had CB Parsons or Mellers but had one CH Mellers. Not enough to base anything on. Sorry.
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
No worries the Calumma parsonii parsonii situation is a can of worms. The prevention of beginners thing is just to prevent keepers or people and to have them only buy Calumma parsonii parsonii when they are prepared and save those keepers a lot of pain.



The regularly captive breeding of Calumma parsonii parsonii is a new thing here in the USA. From 1995-2002 Calumma parsonii parsonii were bred only a half dozen time. From 2002-2012 there were no captive breeding of Calumma parsonii parsonii in North America to best of my knowledge. From 2013- now there has been ~a dozen or over a dozen. While Trioceros melleri I have seen (about seen) captive bred or captive hatched clutches from 1995-now of 2-3 clutches about every 2-4 years. With that model when you go 2 clutches of Trioceros melleri every 2 years (accurate numbers 2017-1995=22 years 22/2=11 11*2=22 clutches). There has been more Trioceros melleri produced. Things are changing. I have kept both Calumma parsonii parsonii and Trioceros melleri.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Humm I don't know about parson breeding history, does ken kalish come from USA? CH and CB not the same too me;) much easy to have success with CH and still depend of the importation market
 
Mawtyplant said:
Humm I don't know about parson breeding history, does ken kalish come from USA? CH and CB not the same too me;) much easy to have success with CH and still depend of the importation market
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What are you talking about then there are CH and CB bred of both of these species during all this time frame. I included both CB and CH hatch Calumma parsonii parsonii and Trioceros melleri in my previous statements and equations along with Ken Kalish's captive bred Parsonii. Does that make things clearer for you?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
When Calumma parsonii parsonii are thriving they can be easy to take care of. However when something is off with them they can have problems.
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You just described every frigging species.
Motherlode Chameleon said:
In the mid 1990's all those easy to take care of wild caught Parsonii did not last to in captivity and is something I won't forget.
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Me either. It's why I learned as much as I have about them and how to rehab them when possible. A fresh import of any species has its own challenges. With this species kidney damage and other dehydration related issues are on top of the typical parasitic ones. These are not things a beginner usually can recognize, and if you can't recognize the issue you cant help the animal. I'm not saying this to scare away potential future keepers, I'm sharing something they should instead file away for future use.


Motherlode Chameleon said:
I am just posting my experiences. I apologize if that scares you. I am not trying to scare people away fro owning Parsonii. I am attempting to prepare prospect owners to be as prepared as they can be
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Which is fine, I do too once in awhile. Laurie was terrified of keeping one, she's a very solid keeper on her own so teaching her the ins and outs of a Parson was easy. However when it comes to somebody who has only owned a ball python I tell them to get out of my sight until they have kept a panther chameleon alive for a year. If that seems elitist, tough. It's not. Instead it is reality offending the person who thinks they can run before they can walk. If you have never owned a hardy species and kept one alive longer than a year, you will have difficulties with the giants.

Motherlode Chameleon said:
My Parsonii demand a large selection of feeder insects.
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Your Parson's have you wrapped around their tail. Now that aside, every cham is different with their feeding habits. It's not on a species by species thing which is hard for some beginners to understand. It's on an individual animal basis. My parson's do fine on about three food items.


jamest0o0 said:
Seems like action Jackson beat me to it. I'm no expert on Parsons, I'll have my first one soon, but SOOO many people just say how they're difficult and not for a first time keeper, but then are vague about any care. It's really weird how elitist some people in this hobby, when most reptiles in general arent difficult if you have the space/resources.
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I agree. When the internet was invented I actually hoped to find others I could share info with. Going to the library or trying to find reptile clubs was a pain in the ass. Then I found out that when it came to rare animals, people kept the info to themselves! They wanted to make money off their discoveries, or other people's. I stopped being as open with folks as a result. I read your post carefully. Read mine above. They are not a good first time chameleon for any hobbyist. I could type a damn book on chameleons here but the truth is simple: Chameleons are unlike any other type of captive reptile. My record was keeping 103 different reptile species (all at the same time) and I'm not joking when I say I could keep just about all the snakes and lizards the same way with some differences granted, but not so with the chameleons. You mentioned "space/resources" and got two out of three things right when it comes to keeping some exotic pets. It should have read "space/resources/knowledge" The last is hard to get, but this website is the best place on the internet to help get that.


jamest0o0 said:
Aquariums, especially reefs can be much more difficult, and to even go further keeping cephalopods. But even with that I didn't see many people discouraging others from keeping them and withholding info on their care. Instead people were blunt about the costs, time, space, etc and said if you can do the research and provide that, go for it. Just don't understand where this uptight attitude for reptiles comes.
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Yes, reef tanks were damn hard back in the day ( I worked in the pet industry for 15 years). Making sure the water chemistry was right, that your equipment was doing what you needed it to, was a difficult thing to teach customers. One thing we could never teach a customer was how to know if a certain type of fish was going to thrive in the tank they built. Oh sure lots of fish will take to a decent reef. But I saw hands down more customers who would just insist on the fish they wanted and not listen to us explain the incompatibility issues. Even if it was in black and white in a book, people would ignore info until they bought the colorful fish they had to have and then only later realize that panther grouper loves eating your fire gobies.

Certain chameleons and tree boas are like that. People want them and don't want the info needed, because it may be too much for them to deal with. I have dealt with far more people who I did take the time to teach how to care for a Parson only to see them later do it half assed and them bringing me a sick animal to look at. So no, not elitist, but seeing a Parson you personally rehabbed that was thriving be brought back by a dumbass who felt hand misting it once a day was enough despite being told it needs two 5 minute long showers daily at a minimum really turns off those who have worked with these animal in depth.

To own a Parson is to be ruined from owning most other species, at least to an old elitist like me :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
What are you talking about then there are CH and CB bred of both of these species during all this time frame. I included both CB and CH hatch Calumma parsonii parsonii and Trioceros melleri in my previous statements and equations along with Ken Kalish's captive bred Parsonii. Does that make things clearer for you?

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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Yeah, sorry english not my first language i hope i have not say something mad
i was making the difference between ch and cb because for me it is difficult to compare the reproduction of meller and Parson especially if we add all CH, (the number of wc mellers is much much higher than the parsons so it makes the count fairly uneven. between the two is quite different what makes it so few breeders are willing to take the risk unlike the melleri) On the other hand for the duration of incubation, the parsons gain in term of difficulties .. many newborns die a ( the hatching as much for the melleri as for the parsons one would say) but I believe that the news is harder after 19 months of incubation (parsons) than 5-6 months (melleri): P For the rest, that mellers are as hard to keep and reproduce as parsons. If I am this post with interest it is that I consider one day to buy me a couple of parsons. I was asking for KEn kalash if it was usa because in reality I do not know. Does it come from the usa? if so I thought he had reproduced parsons in 95?
 
In my opinion CBB melleri are still more difficult than CBB parsonii. They are incredibly sensitive to stress, under/over supplementation ( need more than parsons, but less than veileds and need preformed A ), the wrong medications, and disturbances in their social order, even solitary melleri can become stressed by the incessant search for a mate or other melleri, once sexually mature. The melleri discovery is a site you can google that gives an idea of their care and social proclivities. I have bred melleri and had both WC and CBB animals, and kept both CBB parsons and WC animals.
 
Extensionofgreen said:
In my opinion CBB melleri are still more difficult than CBB parsonii. They are incredibly sensitive to stress, under/over supplementation ( need more than parsons, but less than veileds and need preformed A ), the wrong medications, and disturbances in their social order, even solitary melleri can become stressed by the incessant search for a mate or other melleri, once sexually mature. The melleri discovery is a site you can google that gives an idea of their care and social proclivities. I have bred melleri and had both WC and CBB animals, and kept both CBB parsons and WC animals.
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Meller discovery is dead (RIP) sorry for the bad news :/
 
OldChamKeeper said:
You just described every frigging species.

To own a Parson is to be ruined from owning most other species, at least to an old elitist like me :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
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I was going in the direction that Calumma parsonii parsonii have higher maintenance requirements to keep thriving (large selection of feeder, larger enclosures, high humidity in room size enclosures, more watering, controlled temperatures (necessary burmation), and large scale UV lighting. When things are off Calumma parsonii parsonii health can decline faster than other so called easy species (Veiled, Panthers and Jacksons) even with high maintenance husbandry equipment.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
I was going in the direction that Calumma parsonii parsonii have higher maintenance requirements to keep thriving (large selection of feeder, larger enclosures, high humidity in room size enclosures, more watering, controlled temperatures (necessary burmation), and large scale UV lighting. When things are off Calumma parsonii parsonii health can decline faster than other so called easy species (Veiled, Panthers and Jacksons) even with high maintenance husbandry equipment.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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I think the only major difference between melleri and parsonii is the burmation, im I right? (especially when the go out of the burmation?) but I was tempted to think than parsonii are less active than melleri so they need a smaller size enclosure? (well.. smaller than a room :p)
 
Mawtyplant said:
I think the only major difference between melleri and parsonii is the burmation, im I right? (especially when the go out of the burmation?) but I was tempted to think than parsonii are less active than melleri so they need a smaller size enclosure? (well.. smaller than a room :p)
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No the two species have very different requirements. This conversation is becoming a bit ridiculous. However Triceros melleri can be kept in colonies in large enclosures. While Calumma parsonii parsonii are normally kept singly in room sized enclosures.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
 
Motherlode Chameleon said:
No the two species have very different requirements. This conversation is becoming a bit ridiculous. However Triceros melleri can be kept in colonies in large enclosures. While Calumma parsonii parsonii are normally kept singly in room sized enclosures.

Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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humm.. I don't really understand why you think its ridiculous? I plan to buy a parsons and its good to know what differences between both species because im really more use to care melleri.. but ok lets just stop this im gonna found somewhere else ;)
 
@OldChamKeeper I mean no disrespect, I can clearly tell you are an experienced person, but none of what you posted really answered my frustrations for why there is no solid info on Parsons. Maybe I'm not following, but your post just seems to be going from one extreme to the other. Pretty much every person I've seen on here seriously interested in keeping Parsons, wouldn't dream of only doing a handmisting session a day. Then again, i guess people on here arent *usually* the ones to worry about. I'm only at about a year of recent chameleon keeping(as in within the last 10 years) and I have found it incredibly difficult to get any solid information. There have been a few very experienced keepers on here that have taken much time giving me what info they can. So I won't insult them in saying nobody helped, but you can tell even they don't have solid answers like you'd see with Panthers, veileds, many other reptiles, etc. This is just a very new thing to me in the world of exotic animal keeping. Or maybe I just haven't noticed it elsewhere. I assume it's $ related. Having that whole 'secret recipe' feel. I used the cephalopod reference because keeping cuttlefish/octopus has to be one of the most difficult things in terms of $, space, knowledge along with how sensitive to bad husbandry they are. Yet when I was a kid, interested in keeping them, people were more than happy to share everything they could while warning me of the costs(which ultimately kept me from getting them, minimum wage couldn't do it lol) and everything that goes along. There was no cliquey feeling that you had to be a certain somebody to be worth keeping things. It was just like 'here's what you have to provide, if you can, go for it' attitude. Now people did say it'd help to have reef experience first, but no one was insisting it(that I remember).

Btw knowledge is a resource in my perspective (y);)
 
 
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