Parsons growth?

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Something that I've been a little confused about... so most chams have time frames in their life where they do most of their growing. For Parsons though, some of them brumate and some of them don't. For the brumation, they basically stall from around October to April(at least in my case, October they start to slow and April they begin to speed back up). I believe this is also a necessary thing if they ever want to be bred. So do they just pick up growing where they left off? I wondered if maybe this could stunt their growth, but then from what I hear they are even larger in the wild and there's even more extreme temp swings(I've heard down to the 30s). So do they just continually grow forever? How does brumation affect their overall growth through adulthood?

If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me. I've never been to ranomafana(where my boy is from) or Madagascar lol, so I'm just going off of what I've read and heard.
 

KobaOregonherper

Avid Member
Very good question. Reminds me of the Chameleon Breeder Podcast episode on husbandry. Bill talks about currently accepted keeping practices and how we go through generally accepted norms, which could very well turn out to be completely wrong. For all we know it could be the extreme fluctuations in temp or some other missing element. I couldnt find anything on this topic really. It just goes to show that our husbandry always needs improving. Also makes me want to figure it out.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Something that I've been a little confused about... so most chams have time frames in their life where they do most of their growing. For Parsons though, some of them brumate and some of them don't. For the brumation, they basically stall from around October to April(at least in my case, October they start to slow and April they begin to speed back up). I believe this is also a necessary thing if they ever want to be bred. So do they just pick up growing where they left off? I wondered if maybe this could stunt their growth, but then from what I hear they are even larger in the wild and there's even more extreme temp swings(I've heard down to the 30s). So do they just continually grow forever? How does brumation affect their overall growth through adulthood?

If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me. I've never been to ranomafana(where my boy is from) or Madagascar lol, so I'm just going off of what I've read and heard.

Honestly, I think your best bet here would be to consult a long time Parsons Keeper. The ones of past that we knew and love are still here, just not as active. Maybe PM Oldchamkeeper or Craig Directly. While I hate to suggest it, the Parsonii Fbook groups might be a better fit as well. I feel like most of the Parsons guys have left the building :(.

When I was looking at a Parsons and learning from the greats it as a Cristifers and they don't really brumate, and I never really asked this question. I think you are the only remaining very active in threads Parsons Keeper.
 

CamoChameleonsHuman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Honestly, I think your best bet here would be to consult a long time Parsons Keeper. The ones of past that we knew and love are still here, just not as active. Maybe PM Oldchamkeeper or Craig Directly. While I hate to suggest it, the Parsonii Fbook groups might be a better fit as well. I feel like most of the Parsons guys have left the building :(.

When I was looking at a Parsons and learning from the greats it as a Cristifers and they don't really brumate, and I never really asked this question. I think you are the only remaining very active in threads Parsons Keeper.
This is why "No Name" is a God on the forums!
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Honestly, I think your best bet here would be to consult a long time Parsons Keeper. The ones of past that we knew and love are still here, just not as active. Maybe PM Oldchamkeeper or Craig Directly. While I hate to suggest it, the Parsonii Fbook groups might be a better fit as well. I feel like most of the Parsons guys have left the building :(.

When I was looking at a Parsons and learning from the greats it as a Cristifers and they don't really brumate, and I never really asked this question. I think you are the only remaining very active in threads Parsons Keeper.
I was thinking that. I might have to bug Craig a little and get his thoughts... I got my boy from him and he's actually been to their natural habitat. I don't even have a Facebook, but maybe I'll make one...

I've heard that parsonii parsonii don't need to brumate, but that they're unable to reproduce until they go through a winter brumation period. Whether it's simply a seasonal signal to get things rolling or them physically needing the cold to prime their reproductive systems... I have no idea lol. If it is physical thing, rather than mental, I would imagine it impacts their size/health as well, as it probably would with most animals. It's just confusing because with something like a veiled, we say, their window to grow the most is up to 6-9months, if they miss it, they end up stunted... but how does an animal that naturally brumate grow? How does a juevenile that grew all winter differ from one that stalls in the winter and continues again in the summer? Do the adults just endlessly grow as well to make up for this or is there a window? Does their age kind of continue from where they left off when they slowed down? Ugh, so many questions that I'm not expecting to get answers for lol. Maybe if i look at other reptiles that do similar. BTW I'm stating nothing as fact obviously. Just posting what I THINK I know lol.

In general, brumation aside, I do think our chams benefit from reasonable temperature swings. We just got major downpours here in PA and my boy is loving it. Then we'll get some sunny heat and light rain mixed in(very tropical in the summer). Nights are cool and foggy. Lots of wild insects too. Spring and fall allow the natural slow down and speed up with just winter where I have to bring him inside for the 50-60 degree max indoor temps. I need to weigh him, but his appetite is endless in the summer so I bet he put on some good size this summer. I'm feeding about the equivalent to a large hisser almost everyday(lots of variety, and the big ones I only feed off molted).

It is a shame more Parsons keepers don't post here, I wonder why that is.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
I was thinking that. I might have to bug Craig a little and get his thoughts... I got my boy from him and he's actually been to their natural habitat. I don't even have a Facebook, but maybe I'll make one...

I've heard that parsonii parsonii don't need to brumate, but that they're unable to reproduce until they go through a winter brumation period. Whether it's simply a seasonal signal to get things rolling or them physically needing the cold to prime their reproductive systems... I have no idea lol. If it is physical thing, rather than mental, I would imagine it impacts their size/health as well, as it probably would with most animals. It's just confusing because with something like a veiled, we say, their window to grow the most is up to 6-9months, if they miss it, they end up stunted... but how does an animal that naturally brumate grow? How does a juevenile that grew all winter differ from one that stalls in the winter and continues again in the summer? Do the adults just endlessly grow as well to make up for this or is there a window? Does their age kind of continue from where they left off when they slowed down? Ugh, so many questions that I'm not expecting to get answers for lol. Maybe if i look at other reptiles that do similar. BTW I'm stating nothing as fact obviously. Just posting what I THINK I know lol.

In general, brumation aside, I do think our chams benefit from reasonable temperature swings. We just got major downpours here in PA and my boy is loving it. Then we'll get some sunny heat and light rain mixed in(very tropical in the summer). Nights are cool and foggy. Lots of wild insects too. Spring and fall allow the natural slow down and speed up with just winter where I have to bring him inside for the 50-60 degree max indoor temps. I need to weigh him, but his appetite is endless in the summer so I bet he put on some good size this summer. I'm feeding about the equivalent to a large hisser almost everyday(lots of variety, and the big ones I only feed off molted).

It is a shame more Parsons keepers don't post here, I wonder why that is.

It is a shame, I have some suspicions as to why. However that may not be the case. Have to ask them I guess.

Maybe they just got busy or something or prefer Facebook quicker ability to communicate. The Parsons groups are not like the large 2, less drama and issues, they are chill.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Very good question. Reminds me of the Chameleon Breeder Podcast episode on husbandry. Bill talks about currently accepted keeping practices and how we go through generally accepted norms, which could very well turn out to be completely wrong. For all we know it could be the extreme fluctuations in temp or some other missing element. I couldnt find anything on this topic really. It just goes to show that our husbandry always needs improving. Also makes me want to figure it out.
Yup, you see so many people insistent on creating these *perfect stagnant temperatures/humidity along with everything else, from diet, to supplements. I think a certain level of fluctuation is very healthy. My cham is outdoor so he gets all ranges of weather, but even supplements and diet I mix up a ton. Other than making sure to get him the necessary retinol and calcium, I basically dust and gutload with random things, and feed random feeders, every day. A large mix of randomized variety is one of the big advantages wild animals have over captive IMO. Just like with people, we shouldn't eat kale everyday, we should switch up our greens, veggies, fruit, meat, etc all the time. This helps offset the anti nutrients and fill in the gaps without getting too much or too little of anything.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
It is a shame, I have some suspicions as to why. However that may not be the case. Have to ask them I guess.

Maybe they just got busy or something or prefer Facebook quicker ability to communicate. The Parsons groups are not like the large 2, less drama and issues, they are chill.
Well oldchamkeeper explained the other day clearly that we were BSing too much in threads and that's why he doesn't come around... which maybe he has a point. This is my only means of social media, and I dont know many people in my life even remotely close to as interested in these topics as myself... so I enjoy coming on to these forums to casually chat with everyone that shares my interests. It's stress relieving(most of the time!) to escape the craziness that is my house with 2 kids in diapers haha
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Well oldchamkeeper explained the other day clearly that we were BSing too much in threads and that's why he doesn't come around... which maybe he has a point. This is my only means of social media, and I dont know many people in my life even remotely close to as interested in these topics as myself... so I enjoy coming on to these forums to casually chat with everyone that shares my interests. It's stress relieving(most of the time!) to escape the craziness that is my house with 2 kids in diapers haha

I kind of get what he means, there is threads to BS in and others were we shouldn't. I get that angle if that's what he said. I'll have to go see the post :).
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I kind of get what he means, there is threads to BS in and others were we shouldn't. I get that angle if that's what he said. I'll have to go see the post :).
Most definitely, I have said similar in other threads. That particular thread though IMO he was just being a little grumpy because there wasn't much left to be said that hasn't been said a million times over. It wasn't an argument or any drama, he just stated that which is fine. Though I completely agreed with everything he posted. I have no hard feelings and don't mean this as any disrespect towards him.
 

KobaOregonherper

Avid Member
Well oldchamkeeper explained the other day clearly that we were BSing too much in threads and that's why he doesn't come around... which maybe he has a point. This is my only means of social media, and I dont know many people in my life even remotely close to as interested in these topics as myself... so I enjoy coming on to these forums to casually chat with everyone that shares my interests. It's stress relieving(most of the time!) to escape the craziness that is my house with 2 kids in diapers haha
This is pretty much the case with myself as well. Ive tried my hardest to find people that are active and passionate about chameleons near me and its tough. Same boat as well, two kids all under the age of 3, this really is my only outlet for chameleon growth and knowledge. I jumped on the chameleon central page looking for more outlets, but thats a bit too ridiculous for myself. I understand the BSing too much, theres a lot of non informational social posts, but at the same time I feel like that does make people more interested in being a part of the community. Its a double edged sword I guess.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
This is pretty much the case with myself as well. Ive tried my hardest to find people that are active and passionate about chameleons near me and its tough. Same boat as well, two kids all under the age of 3, this really is my only outlet for chameleon growth and knowledge. I jumped on the chameleon central page looking for more outlets, but thats a bit too ridiculous for myself. I understand the BSing too much, theres a lot of non informational social posts, but at the same time I feel like that does make people more interested in being a part of the community. Its a double edged sword I guess.
OCK wasn't talking about too many social posts, he was complaining about too much socializing and BSing in serious posts.

He was saying the forum as a whole has degraded into a social hour, and real info and real help was getting lost in that atmosphere.

You can read his statements in the Petco thread. :).

In the short time I have been back, I can't say I disagree with him TBH. There needs to be a balance, and it seems pretty lopsided as of late.
 

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
I do agree we tend to go off on tangents on threads. It wouldn't hurt to make an effort to stay on topic.
Both OCK and Action Jackson show up here occasionally. I have pm'ed them with questions both got back to me eventually. If you tag them in this thread they might even answer you.
 

KobaOregonherper

Avid Member
OCK wasn't talking about too many social posts, he was complaining about too much socializing and BSing in serious posts.

He was saying the forum as a whole has degraded into a social hour, and real info and real help was getting lost in that atmosphere.

You can read his statements in the Petco thread. :).

In the short time I have been back, I can't say I disagree with him TBH. There needs to be a balance, and it seems pretty lopsided as of late.
Yeah I remember. Everyone going off about pitbulls when my post was about the sick female at petco.
 
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