Panther Toxic Plant Treatment/ Recovery

[Roxanimals]

I have a 4 month old Panther chameleon male that was shipped to me and I received Tuesday, June 27.

I made a tremendous mistake of putting a philodendron and a golden dew drop in his enclosure. I heavily washed both of these plants before putting them in his enclosure, luckily.

Friday he fell out of his tree. The second and third pictures of his beautiful blue and good grip on my hand are right after his first fall. I spoke to his breeder, we identified that the plants were toxic, I removed them and replaced them with pothos. I gave him a “bath”, and cycled 2 gallons of water through his cage to clean it out.

He is having severe dexterity issues. He continuously grabs his front arm with his back leg immobilizing himself. He then gets frustrated and scared that he cannot move and ultimately ends up falling. He primarily does this when he is crawling in the pothos.

After being a little “spicy” about me removing his holding himself he can climb branches normally and he has no issues climbing the cage mesh to hunt crickets. He is eating.

I’ve heard of activated charcoal suspension but seeing the exposure has long passed and he has been in “recovery” for 3.5 days I am not sure what to do for him.

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated.

 

[elizaann2]

Hello and welcome! I am sorry to hear your little one is sick. Below are some questions that will help the experts here in helping you more.

Can you tell us where you purchased him from?

Next, copy the form below and fill out the answers regarding your husbandry.

Do you have an exotic vet you can take him to or do you need help finding one?


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with, and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem -


@Beman Can you help?

 

[Flick boy]

Hi and welcome where did you get him ? If you only have him a couple of days there could be underlying issues, panthers are not really known to eat plants, if you can fill out the husbandry formthis could/ may help the members give advice, I'm not really liking the limb shape, did the breeders give you information on the care provided prior to you obtaining him / her

 

[MissSkittles]

Aww…poor little guy. It sounds like the plant has a neurotoxin, that is obviously potent enough that lapping water from the leaves causes problems. I’m going to say to call a vet for advice. You may need to call the animal poison hotline.

 

[kinyonga]

What are the Latin names of the plants?

 

[Roxanimals]

Hello and welcome! I am sorry to hear your little one is sick. Below are some questions that will help the experts here in helping you more.

Can you tell us where you purchased him from?

Next, copy the form below and fill out the answers regarding your husbandry.

Do you have an exotic vet you can take him to or do you need help finding one?


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with, and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long do you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high-traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem -


@Beman Can you help?

I got this guy from King Chams. They’ve been absolutely amazing and helpful. “We” have currently set him up in a hospital bin.

I do have an exotic vet but exposure has passed and I’m wondering if anyone else has experienced this.

Cham- Male Panther chameleon that I have had for 6 days.

Handling- I try not to handle as he’s adjusting but have been “helping” him when he falls.

Feeding- Gut loaded small crickets dusted with calcium without D (gut loaded with Timothy hay, dry cat food, and rabbit pellets as well as carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, sweet peppers, zucchini dusted with spirulina, mazuri gut loading formula, bee pollen and dried sea weed). I also offer a dish of mealworms, wax worms and fly larvae but he hasn’t tried those.

Supplements- Calcium without D daily

Watering- Misting system set for 3 minutes 3 times a day pointed down to only hit the leaves

Fecal- Cage is too large to have noticed. Normal fecal upon arrival.

Cage info

Type- XL reptibreeze

Lighting- Giangarden T5 10.0 UVB and reptisun 5.0 UVB with heat lamp

Temperature and Humidity- 6” from heat source is 80F and 40% humidity. Lower portion of cage opposite of heat lamp is 76F and 50% humidity. I have two humidity/ temperature gauges on opposites sides and heights in the cage.

Plants- Two golden pothos with bamboo sticks for ladders. After falling once placed a 2” layer of moss on bottom of cage.

Location- corner of living room, not air vent/ intake or fan, near a window that gets no direct light.

CURRENT PROBLEM- I had a philodendron in the cage the first 4 days. The breeder and I established it was toxic, it was removed, the cage was cleaned. Cham fell on Friday and is not grabbing its legs causing it to fall more.

Currently in a hospital bin to avoid further falling injuries. This morning he developed a small black spot on his stomach.

Not sure if anything can be done about philodendron toxicity or what to look for injury wise after the falls.

 

[MissSkittles]

I don’t believe the philodendron would be the toxic plant. I have been using heart leaf philodendron with my chameleons with no issues. The reason for it being considered toxic is calcium oxalates crystals, which are the same that pothos has. The crystals can be a gastrointestinal irritant. The golden dewdrop, aka Durana erect however is said for all parts to be quite toxic to humans and animals, oddly except for birds.

 

[CalamityCrow]

The black spot on his belly I'd say is most likely a bruise from hitting something while falling. Keep an eye on it to see if it grows/changes, but that's my guess. Doesn't quite look like a thermal burn to me.

I don't know anything about plant toxicity, but as for the food you're offering, mealworms/waxworms aren't ideal anyway and I'd ditch those. Black soldier fly larvae, dubia roaches, silkworms, and hornworms (small enough that they're no bigger than the width between his eyes) are great feeders though. I Hope he feels better soon!

 

[Roxanimals]

What are the Latin names of the plants?

The plants were

Species: P. billietiae
Family: Araceae
Genus: Philodendron

And

Duranta erecta

 

[Roxanimals]

I don’t believe the philodendron would be the toxic plant. I have been using heart leaf philodendron with my chameleons with no issues. The reason for it being considered toxic is calcium oxalates crystals, which are the same that pothos has. The crystals can be a gastrointestinal irritant. The golden dewdrop, aka Durana erect however is said for all parts to be quite toxic to humans and animals, oddly except for birds.

This is what I’m afraid of. I didn’t think it was the philodendron as they’re so closely related to the pothos but I had no idea the dewdrop was so toxic and believe it to be the culprit. A call to animal poison control is a great idea. I forgot about them!

 

[Roxanimals]

The black spot on his belly I'd say is most likely a bruise from hitting something while falling. Keep an eye on it to see if it grows/changes, but that's my guess. Doesn't quite look like a thermal burn to me.

I don't know anything about plant toxicity, but as for the food you're offering, mealworms/waxworms aren't ideal anyway and I'd ditch those. Black soldier fly larvae, dubia roaches, silkworms, and hornworms (small enough that they're no bigger than the width between his eyes) are great feeders though. I Hope he feels better soon!

Yes, I’m not sure if it is a bruise or internal bleeding. I have him in a hospital bin for now to minimize the falling and hopefully allow for some recovering. The bottom of his cage was bare but after his first fall (that I know of) I put down about 2” of moss to cushion the subsequent falls.

I’ve heard the meal and wax worms aren’t the best and are better as treats. I usually only give the crickets and dubia but given his condition I’m offering anything in hopes to keep him eating. I’ve only had him a week so haven’t had a lot of time to offer new food, especially with this happening during his transition.

 

[Roxanimals]

Hi and welcome where did you get him ? If you only have him a couple of days there could be underlying issues, panthers are not really known to eat plants, if you can fill out the husbandry formthis could/ may help the members give advice, I'm not really liking the limb shape, did the breeders give you information on the care provided prior to you obtaining him / her

He came from King Chams and they’ve been absolutely wonderful in helping me deal with this. I got him Tuesday and the first time I know he fell was Friday. I’m afraid he may have broken something in the fall. I do have a care sheet for him.

As someone mentioned one of the plants I had put in there is extremely toxic.

 

[Roxanimals]

Aww…poor little guy. It sounds like the plant has a neurotoxin, that is obviously potent enough that lapping water from the leaves causes problems. I’m going to say to call a vet for advice. You may need to call the animal poison hotline.

I did wash the plants heavily before placing them in the cage. I just didn’t know, and didn’t research, that the golden dew drop was so toxic.

 

[Roxanimals]

If it helps at all, this is what he looked like on Tuesday, June 27 when I picked him up

 

[MissSkittles]

I did wash the plants heavily before placing them in the cage. I just didn’t know, and didn’t research, that the golden dew drop was so toxic.

Hopefully he’ll fully recover and quickly. I didn’t go thru your husbandry, but I will in a bit.

 

[MissSkittles]

Most things look good to my quick scan and just a couple of improvements can be made.
Cham- Male Panther chameleon that I have had for 6 days.

Handling- I try not to handle as he’s adjusting but have been “helping” him when he falls. My situation was much different, but I made my girl a little platform of sorts using bendy vine to help prevent her from falling instead of putting her in a hospital bin. Also I had a much smaller enclosure to move her into for that. I did use as backup some bearded dragon hammocks and kerchiefs which did catch her at least a couple of times.
When he recovers, it’s good to build trust with him. Here’s a fantastic blog on how to that. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

Feeding- Gut loaded small crickets dusted with calcium without D (gut loaded with Timothy hay, dry cat food, and rabbit pellets as well as carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, sweet peppers, zucchini dusted with spirulina, mazuri gut loading formula, bee pollen and dried sea weed). I also offer a dish of mealworms, wax worms and fly larvae but he hasn’t tried those. I have some concerns, primarily about the cat food. You don’t want to give your feeders anything like cat/dog food as the high protein levels can lead to causing gout. The rest of your gut loading is great! The healthier your bugs are, the more nutritious they will be.
For feeders, crickets are one good staple feeder, but you’ll be wanting to add more for variety. My personal favorites are silkworms and roaches. Instead of mealworms, superworms are better but only for treats. Bsfl are great staples and for fun treats, you can let some turn into flies and let your guy hunt them.

Supplements- Calcium without D daily This is good, but he needs a D3 source and multivitamin too. There’s many different supplements and regimens, but I like using a combo multivitamin and D3, like Repashy calcium plus LoD or Reptivite with D3. You would use one of those for one feeding every other week.

Watering- Misting system set for 3 minutes 3 times a day pointed down to only hit the leaves Perfect

Fecal- Cage is too large to have noticed. Normal fecal upon arrival. You will want to get a fecal done just to be safe.

Cage info

Type- XL reptibreeze

Lighting- Giangarden T5 10.0 UVB and reptisun 5.0 UVB with heat lamp I’m confused. Are you using two different uvb bulbs? The standard is to use a T5 with either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6%. Then you want it to be 8-9” above basking area. If you are using a 10.0 the distance will need to be increased to 10-11”. You should have all of your lights on a 12 hour schedule and no heat at night unless the temp drops below 60F. Little ones like to screen climb upside down on the top of the enclosure so are at high risk for burns. Because of this you need to raise your lights at least a few inches off the screen top. I find wire baskets from the dollar store work great for this.

Temperature and Humidity- 6” from heat source is 80F and 40% humidity. Lower portion of cage opposite of heat lamp is 76F and 50% humidity. I have two humidity/ temperature gauges on opposites sides and heights in the cage. For very young chameleons you don’t want basking temp to exceed 80F. There will be a natural gradient lower in the enclosure. As he grows into an adult, his basking temp can go up to 85F. Ideal daytime humidity for panthers is between 50-70%. Live plants will create pockets of increased humidity. At night if you are able to achieve a significant temp drop to below at least 70F, you can run a cool mist humidifier/fogger and boost humidity all the way it’ll go. That simulates the natural hydration they get in the wild thru fog.

Plants- Two golden pothos with bamboo sticks for ladders. After falling once placed a 2” layer of moss on bottom of cage. Be cautious with bamboo. Usually it is very slippery and even more so when wet. You can use real tree branches. Avoid pine, eucalyptus and other sappy and smelly wood. Give a wash with soapy water, rinse rinse rinse and they’re good to go.

Location- corner of living room, not air vent/ intake or fan, near a window that gets no direct light. Is it raised or on the floor? Height = safety for chameleons.

CURRENT PROBLEM- I had a philodendron in the cage the first 4 days. The breeder and I established it was toxic, it was removed, the cage was cleaned. Cham fell on Friday and is not grabbing its legs causing it to fall more. Unfortunately you found out the hard way we need to be extra careful what we put in our cham‘s enclosures. This is a great guide and probably the only one I really trust. https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ I’ve already told you my experience/knowledge on heart leaf philodendron. I know the monstera plants which are also in the philodendron family are safe, but I don’t know about the entire philodendron family. I do have another idea but this is already long, so I’ll post it separately.

Currently in a hospital bin to avoid further falling injuries. This morning he developed a small black spot on his stomach. The black is a bruise, as has already been said. It’ll be hard to evaluate if he got injured since he isn’t moving normally. However, I can tell you that on at least two occasions my chams have thrown themselves out of my grasp onto the floor (concrete no less) and been just fine. It is their last ditch survival instinct to throw themselves from the tree to escape a predator. The hospital bin is best, but do be very careful with heat and lights so as not to bake the poor little guy.

Not sure if anything can be done about philodendron toxicity or what to look for injury wise after the falls.

 

[MissSkittles]

Usually in the case I’ve seen here when a chameleon starts grabbing at it’s own legs and is uncoordinated, it’s a neurological sign and usually accompanies problems related to not enough or too much vitamin D3. You haven’t had him long enough and after checking out your breeder’s site and from what you’ve said of them, they seem to not only know but care about the husbandry of their animals. I checked the type of philodendron you used and that too is just the calcium oxalates crystals. You say you heavily washed the plants - what about rinsing them? Did you repot them in fresh organic soil? Has anyone used any chemical sprays in the house in the past couple of days? All I can say is to seek advisement from a vet and hydrate the little guy very well. Maybe add a dripper, give some juicy hornworms (make sure they are small enough for him). Hoping and praying that this just goes away quickly and little guy is fine.

 

[JacksJill]

How are your crickets being kept? Is there any way they could have eaten moldy grain before being fed to your cham? if so read this. Post in thread 'Aflatoxicosis'

 

[Roxanimals]

Most things look good to my quick scan and just a couple of improvements can be made.
Cham- Male Panther chameleon that I have had for 6 days.

Handling- I try not to handle as he’s adjusting but have been “helping” him when he falls. My situation was much different, but I made my girl a little platform of sorts using bendy vine to help prevent her from falling instead of putting her in a hospital bin. Also I had a much smaller enclosure to move her into for that. I did use as backup some bearded dragon hammocks and kerchiefs which did catch her at least a couple of times.
When he recovers, it’s good to build trust with him. Here’s a fantastic blog on how to that. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

Feeding- Gut loaded small crickets dusted with calcium without D (gut loaded with Timothy hay, dry cat food, and rabbit pellets as well as carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, sweet peppers, zucchini dusted with spirulina, mazuri gut loading formula, bee pollen and dried sea weed). I also offer a dish of mealworms, wax worms and fly larvae but he hasn’t tried those. I have some concerns, primarily about the cat food. You don’t want to give your feeders anything like cat/dog food as the high protein levels can lead to causing gout. The rest of your gut loading is great! The healthier your bugs are, the more nutritious they will be.
For feeders, crickets are one good staple feeder, but you’ll be wanting to add more for variety. My personal favorites are silkworms and roaches. Instead of mealworms, superworms are better but only for treats. Bsfl are great staples and for fun treats, you can let some turn into flies and let your guy hunt them.

Supplements- Calcium without D daily This is good, but he needs a D3 source and multivitamin too. There’s many different supplements and regimens, but I like using a combo multivitamin and D3, like Repashy calcium plus LoD or Reptivite with D3. You would use one of those for one feeding every other week.

Watering- Misting system set for 3 minutes 3 times a day pointed down to only hit the leaves Perfect

Fecal- Cage is too large to have noticed. Normal fecal upon arrival. You will want to get a fecal done just to be safe.

Cage info

Type- XL reptibreeze

Lighting- Giangarden T5 10.0 UVB and reptisun 5.0 UVB with heat lamp I’m confused. Are you using two different uvb bulbs? The standard is to use a T5 with either ReptiSun 5.0 or Arcadia 6%. Then you want it to be 8-9” above basking area. If you are using a 10.0 the distance will need to be increased to 10-11”. You should have all of your lights on a 12 hour schedule and no heat at night unless the temp drops below 60F. Little ones like to screen climb upside down on the top of the enclosure so are at high risk for burns. Because of this you need to raise your lights at least a few inches off the screen top. I find wire baskets from the dollar store work great for this.

Temperature and Humidity- 6” from heat source is 80F and 40% humidity. Lower portion of cage opposite of heat lamp is 76F and 50% humidity. I have two humidity/ temperature gauges on opposites sides and heights in the cage. For very young chameleons you don’t want basking temp to exceed 80F. There will be a natural gradient lower in the enclosure. As he grows into an adult, his basking temp can go up to 85F. Ideal daytime humidity for panthers is between 50-70%. Live plants will create pockets of increased humidity. At night if you are able to achieve a significant temp drop to below at least 70F, you can run a cool mist humidifier/fogger and boost humidity all the way it’ll go. That simulates the natural hydration they get in the wild thru fog.

Plants- Two golden pothos with bamboo sticks for ladders. After falling once placed a 2” layer of moss on bottom of cage. Be cautious with bamboo. Usually it is very slippery and even more so when wet. You can use real tree branches. Avoid pine, eucalyptus and other sappy and smelly wood. Give a wash with soapy water, rinse rinse rinse and they’re good to go.

Location- corner of living room, not air vent/ intake or fan, near a window that gets no direct light. Is it raised or on the floor? Height = safety for chameleons.

CURRENT PROBLEM- I had a philodendron in the cage the first 4 days. The breeder and I established it was toxic, it was removed, the cage was cleaned. Cham fell on Friday and is not grabbing its legs causing it to fall more. Unfortunately you found out the hard way we need to be extra careful what we put in our cham‘s enclosures. This is a great guide and probably the only one I really trust. https://chameleonacademy.com/plants/ I’ve already told you my experience/knowledge on heart leaf philodendron. I know the monstera plants which are also in the philodendron family are safe, but I don’t know about the entire philodendron family. I do have another idea but this is already long, so I’ll post it separately.

Currently in a hospital bin to avoid further falling injuries. This morning he developed a small black spot on his stomach. The black is a bruise, as has already been said. It’ll be hard to evaluate if he got injured since he isn’t moving normally. However, I can tell you that on at least two occasions my chams have thrown themselves out of my grasp onto the floor (concrete no less) and been just fine. It is their last ditch survival instinct to throw themselves from the tree to escape a predator. The hospital bin is best, but do be very careful with heat and lights so as not to bake the poor little guy.

Not sure if anything can be done about philodendron toxicity or what to look for injury wise after the falls.
View attachment 340133

Thank you!

Handling- I’m considering getting a smaller enclosure while he’s healing and the bearded dragon hammocks are a great idea! I don’t love having him in the little bag he’s in butttt it’s better and safer than him continuing to fall. I would say we’re doing better bonding and he’s not as threatened by me helping him work through letting go of himself. I will read the article on bonding. This morning he preferred I hold him instead of going into his hospital bin, which I would consider a major improvement because he’s otherwise been flairing up at me.

Feeding- I can stop adding the cat food. I read somewhere to use it but I don’t recall where. I live in Florida so dubia are illegal… my local super worms are way too big for him. He doesn’t have any interest in the BSFL. I will get him some silk and horn worms today.

Supplements- I do have reptivite with D that I gave him yesterday. I didn’t mention it because it’s a biweekly supplement and I haven’t had him long enough to give it regularly.

Fecal- I haven’t seen him poop until this morning so I can take that in when I take him. His urite was a bit orange but he has no other signs of dehydration and I have not seen him poop.

Lighting- Yes, he does have two different UVB bulbs. I can remove on and raise the other one from the top of his cage.

Temperature and Humidity- He doesn’t go anywhere near the heat lamp but does like to hang upside down on the cage mesh. I’ll move the lights once he’s doing better. There are no air drafts near him and my house never reaches above 74F which is why I have the heat lamp. Night time temperature in both the top and bottom of his cage is 70F.

Plants- I can get rid of the bamboo. I set it up in a pinch when I was redoing his cage after his “first” fall, I didn’t have anything to else handy to support the pothos. I live right next to a nature preserve, I can easily get some oak branches to clean (and rinse) and redo his cage.

Location- His cage is on an end table that is about 20” off the ground. The top of his cage is roughly 6’ from the floor.

Current problem- I agree it was the golden dew drop that caused issues. His breeder also recommends chameleonacademy and I’ll be reading up.

 

[Roxanimals]

Usually in the case I’ve seen here when a chameleon starts grabbing at it’s own legs and is uncoordinated, it’s a neurological sign and usually accompanies problems related to not enough or too much vitamin D3. You haven’t had him long enough and after checking out your breeder’s site and from what you’ve said of them, they seem to not only know but care about the husbandry of their animals. I checked the type of philodendron you used and that too is just the calcium oxalates crystals. You say you heavily washed the plants - what about rinsing them? Did you repot them in fresh organic soil? Has anyone used any chemical sprays in the house in the past couple of days? All I can say is to seek advisement from a vet and hydrate the little guy very well. Maybe add a dripper, give some juicy hornworms (make sure they are small enough for him). Hoping and praying that this just goes away quickly and little guy is fine.

Thank you for all of your help and advice! I did give him some reptivite to get him some vitamin D (breeder guidance) because the rephasy calcium with low D will take over a week to arrive. He IS starting to figure out how to unlatch himself.

Yes, King Chams has been wonderful and supportive. I went with them after following them for close to a year and getting a good idea on their knowledge and husbandry.

Yes, I rinsed the plants for about 20 minutes, removed the top layer of soil and replaced it with organic potting soil before placing them in the cage.

I do use chemical cleaning sprays in my kitchen 20’ away but no chemicals anywhere near the chameleon.

I will get some hornworms and a trip to the vet.