Panther symptoms of illness with no obvious causes or indicators

[spearsre]

I have a 6 month old male panther chameleon. He has been eating very well
and getting the usual hydration consisting of warm showers, regular
misting, and even hand watering. Two days ago I noticed he did not eat any
of his normal cricket load. I also noticed a slight weakness in his
movements. Yesterday, I got home to find him with sunken eyes. So, I
immediately started hydrating him via all sources mentioned above and
injecting sub-q fluids. His eye turrets appeared to return semi-normal
within 1-hour. So, the temps are staying around 73 F and he has two basking
lamps. This was a surprising turn in his health and there have been no
deviations from his normal watering routine or feeding. Any other
suggestions?


I also posted earlier discussing his lack of interest in drinking dripping or misting water which is typical behavior for him.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Here is some recommended information to include when asking for help in the health clinic forum. By providing this information, you will receive more accurate and beneficial responses. It might not be necessary to answer all these questions, but the more you provide the better. Please remember that even the most knowledgeable person can only guess at what your problem may be. Only an experienced reptile veterinarian who can directly examine your animal can give a true diagnosis of your chameleon's health.


Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
• Current Problem - The current problem that you are concerned about.

Pictures are helpful

 

[spearsre]

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage construction (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions? 24x24x36 screen
Lighting - What brand, model, and type of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? T-rex basking lamp (75 W) and 160W Powersun UVB

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? 73 bottom and 95 F top.

Lowest overnight temp? 65 F

How do you measure these temps? thermometers at top 4 inches from light. Bottom Thermometer.

Humidity - What are your humidity levels? humidifier in room How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity? humidity stays at 50-65 percent with humidifier running all the time...live in Colorado.
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind? Yes, medium ficus dense foliage.

Location - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? Room in basement that is closed off.
At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? 8 feet.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care? F. pardalis, m, 7 months. Been in my care for 3 months.
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? About 10 minutes a day.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? Crickets and Super Worms with cockroaches as occassional supplements. What amount? Varies. I usually feed every other day and usually ten to 15 large crickets. What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders? ICage Info:
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Cannot remember the names but they are the same brands as advertised and sold by Kammerflage Kreations.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Misting and drip. How often and how long to you mist? 30 minutes Do you see your chameleon drinking? sometimes but usually just sits there and watches.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Fecals look great typically. Yesterday I noticed a yellow/orange coloration so I started hydrating He has been tested for parasites. Although recently he has eaten a couple of large houseflies that he captured while sitting on my hand. Wild HFlies carry lots of parasites.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you. Purchased from Kammerflage Kreations and has been doing great until Tuesday of this week.

I will take a photo later and post for viewing.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I would say that your basking temp is a little high.

I would lower it closer to 85-90. Pictures of the setup will help along with pictures of the Cham.

Who is the sire of your panther?

how far away do you have the MV UVB light from the top? Have you tested the UVB level using a meter?

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Ron,

How does his tale look and his head caps? Many times when chameleons take that turn for the worst they draw their eyes in and it is not related to hydration at all. If he has full head caps and is drawing his eyes in there is a totally different issue. As for right now I would mash up a few silkies or crickets in pediasure and give him half a cc of that stuff then half a cc of water after he has swallowed the pediasure mixture. He very well could have picked something up from those wild flies. I don't know which way to steer you if that is the case...maybe Matt Wheelock can tell you possibilities if he did get a parasite from wild flies.

Chris

 

[DylanN]

65 degrees at night is a little low, i would try to keep it around 68-70, also when you mist him the humidity level should spike at around 70 to 80 a couple times a day. I live in NM so i know it can be hard to keep it up so high. Also for the 1st year of his life his food should be dusted with a multi vitamin supplement at every regular feeding, like every time you give him his crickets.

 

[Kat77]

65 degrees at night is a little low, i would try to keep it around 68-70, also when you mist him the humidity level should spike at around 70 to 80 a couple times a day. I live in NM so i know it can be hard to keep it up so high. Also for the 1st year of his life his food should be dusted with a multi vitamin supplement at every regular feeding, like everytime you give him his crickets.

I disagree, 65 at night isn't low. They can get cooler than that at night and still be fine.

However, he probably doesn't need two basking lamps, unless his enclosure is GIGANTIC, which he also doesn't need at six months. If his symptoms continue, I would take him to a qualified reptile vet that has experience with chameleons, just to be safe.

 

[spearsre]

Great responses and thanks for the expediency of them all. I will try to answer more of the questions. His tail looks fine...although interesting point is that over the last few days he has not "rolled" it up. However today at noon I went home to check on him. He was sleeping with it rolled up directly under the UVB. The sleeping bothers me but when I interrupted him he got active very quickly. His head caps look fine to an untrained eye. He has some whitish coloration but that is part of his genetics I believe. I will get a photo up soon to help. The sire of Kumar (original huh?) is Menadivay from the Kammer's. He at 6 months has fantistic colors and looks like he may be a spitting image of his father (Red and blue). He is about 15 inches long including his tail. He was the alpha male of the clutch. Chris give me a little more on the tail issues. That is relatively new to me and I am interested.

It could be just that I need to increase the humidity and be more agressive with his hydration. I plan to take some of the advice here and update. Thanks for all the suggestions so far but I really need to get a photo up this evening. I will keep checking in for additional comments. I am very concerned about this since I did not see any indications that were obvious and I pay attention to behavior and diet.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Ron,

Post photos of him as well as photos of his setup. Ryan asked what distance you've got the MV set from your chameleon? If you have an infrared temp gun, I'd like to know what his skin temp is under his basking spot.

As has been mentioned by Chris, hydration might not be your problem. As you mentioned, closed eyes at noon, under the basking spot is a big problem.

I may have missed your supplement schedule in your post . What is it? What brands?

Parasites are always a possibility.

I've been pondering about this for a hour... It's time to hit the send key...

 

[spearsre]

Howdy Ron,

Post photos of him as well as photos of his setup. Ryan asked what distance you've got the MV set from your chameleon? If you have an infrared temp gun, I'd like to know what his skin temp is under his basking spot.

As has been mentioned by Chris, hydration might not be your problem. As you mentioned, closed eyes at noon, under the basking spot is a big problem.

I may have missed your supplement schedule in your post . What is it? What brands?

Parasites are always a possibility.

I've been pondering about this for a hour... It's time to hit the send key...

Thanks for all your time pondering this. Really! The MV is actually sitting on the top of his cage. I unfortunately do not have a ITG to check his temp. He does move around the cage frequently. I supplement constantly since he is under 1 year old. The brands I use include: Miner-All and rep-cal with vitamin D, and herptivite. I alternate the Miner-All with these but always mix the Rep-cal and herptivite. I am having problems posting photos but I can also email some to you. I will try to get a setup photo as well. I wonder if the UVB is just too much? Photo is posted in previous posting.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...I supplement constantly since he is under 1 year old.

The brands I use include: Miner-All and rep-cal with vitamin D, and herptivite. I alternate the Miner-All with these but always mix the Rep-cal and herptivite.

I am having problems posting photos but I can also email some to you. I will try to get a setup photo as well. Photo is posted in previous email.

Howdy Ron,

Here's one of many schedules out there. Take a peek at this one:
http://vipervenom9.tripod.com/id17.html
Is that Miner-All (I) or (O)? It is time to cut back on the Herptivite.

That 160W PowerSun should be around 12"-16" away from his skin for reasonable UVB but 160W may be putting too much heat at that distance though. Time to get out your ruler and let us know the distance .
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/mercvapourfloods.htm#zoomedpowersun

Time for more pondering...

 

[spearsre]

Howdy Ron,

Here's one of many schedules out there. Take a peek at this one:
http://vipervenom9.tripod.com/id17.html
Is that Miner-All (I) or (O)? It is time to cut back on the Herptivite.

That 160W PowerSun should be around 12"-16" away from his skin for reasonable UVB but 160W may be putting too much heat at that distance though. Time to get out your ruler and let us know the distance .
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/mercvapourfloods.htm#zoomedpowersun

Time for more pondering...

OK, so I went to a reptile veterinarian and he said that there are no parasites or evidence of them and no dehydration. So I measured the distance and he can bask at approximately 11 inches from the MV bulb. When I took him to the veterinarian he perked up and fired up....man o man. He was very alert the entire time. So the moment I put him back in his cage he found a lower branch and sat there. Just checked on him again and he was asleep. So I am nervous about this. So, I can only come up with this. My heater busted earlier in the week and it got down to 57 degrees upstairs. The basement got down to about 60 degrees F for one night and that is where I keep them. Could this have triggered some "torpor-like" state?

Also, thanks for the site with the scheduling for vitamins and minerals. I will follow that.

 

[spearsre]

Further updates

Back to another veterinarian today for a second opinion and this one is a reptile expert. So after a week, Kumar has finally produced a bowel movement that was watery and greenish and not well formed. This may have been a result of administering one dose of metronizodole. The veterinarian thought that this may help increase his appetite. He is also on a very small dose of Baytril to supplement. I remember Dave Weldon mentioned some historical issues with Baytril which I asked the doctor about. He agreed but said that this was his recommendation considering we have no target to treat at this point. So still no diagnosis and no bloodwork. The doctor thought taking blood at this time could be detrimental to Kumar's response to treatment. I will update further as things progress. Later I will post the treatments that Dr. Fitzgerald of Alameda East in Denver prescribed.

 

[spearsre]

Treatments...

Diagnosis: Possible infection

Diet: Neocalglucon...to keep calcium levels up while sick

Medications: 1.25 mg of Metronidazole once; 0.25 mg Baytril daily for 7 days; 0.05 ml neocalglucon.

Does anyone know where you can get Neocalglucon or CALCIUM GLUBIONATE?

Still has not eaten. It has been five days now.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Ron,

Have what have you been doing as far as calorie intake? Any force feeding or liquid diet? Is that an oral Baytril or injectable?

Chris

 

[spearsre]

So today Kumar looked horrible. I could only imagine it has alot to do with the fact that he is not eating. So, I ground up some crickets and superworms, added calcium and proceeded to hand feed him. Once he got it in his mouth he would eat it. So, I continued his hydration routine...shower, steam, and hand watering. I chose not to do sub-q since he is already stressed out. I am now watching him hold his mouth open almost seemingly gasping for air. I am trying to be optimistic but things are looking really grim at the moment. He is going to the veterinarian tomorrow morning. Hopefully he makes it through the night and with the added protien gains some energy. The Baytril is orally administered. The veterninarian also said Gerber chicken with calcium also works well but since I gave him crickets and superworms that this should work tonight.

 

[Dave Weldon]

...Does anyone know where you can get Neocalglucon or CALCIUM GLUBIONATE?...

Howdy Ron,

You can get it at most pharmacies by asking for it to be ordered. It is usually about $25 for a pint (a zillion doses). I spotted a bottle at the local Costco that someone else special ordered and didn't pick-up. I bought it just in case anyone needs some. If you are a SBCK member and need some, I'll bring it to the next meeting .

 

[spearsre]

Howdy Ron,

You can get it at most pharmacies by asking for it to be ordered. It is usually about $25 for a pint (a zillion doses). I spotted a bottle at the local Costco that someone else special ordered and didn't pick-up. I bought it just in case anyone needs some. If you are a SBCK member and need some, I'll bring it to the next meeting .

I finally did find some and administered it as directed (0.05 ml). I am mixing it in some Gerber chicken baby food and feeding him with a syringe. He looked a tad more spry this morning but I still took him to the local reptile expert veterinarian who is going to see if we can stay ahead of the ballgame. I suggested to the veterinarian that he go either to injectible Baytril or try something else and he agreed. Chris (Cleanline Chameleons) and you suggested that this could cause the loss of appetite among other things. The doctor agreed. I am just happy he is still alive. It is costing a minor fortune but it is a responsibility we have when we keep these critters.

 

[spearsre]

Went to the veterinarian again...

So I have used all my veterinarian cards at this point. I have spent more trying to save him than I did purchasing him. I am dedicated to solving this problem. Blood work came back with no indication of an infection. He is now being taken off Baytril. He is now being treated with Neocalglucon mixed with Gerber chicken baby food and being orally fed. Any recommendations on number of times to feed per day? I am going to do morning and night with one dose of Neocalglucon. Everyone give Kumar good Kudos so he can recover. The fact he has lasted this long is encouraging. There is still no idea what is affecting this guy though.

 

[jannb]

I will be keeping good thoughts for you and for Kumar to have a full recovery soon. Jann