Panther Locale I.D. Please
- Thread starter Todnedo
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Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Really it is hard to say at that age. We'll be able to distinguish it better
once it has mature coloration, usually around 12 months of age.
How old is this boy?
If it already does have adult coloration, get us a shot of it sleeping, and
as hot of him all fired up.
My first guess is blue bar Ambilobe.
once it has mature coloration, usually around 12 months of age.
How old is this boy?
If it already does have adult coloration, get us a shot of it sleeping, and
as hot of him all fired up.
My first guess is blue bar Ambilobe.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Steve, if we guess it can we have it? 
I think I know, I just wish I knew where you got it.
I think I know, I just wish I knew where you got it.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
It is definitely a maro. Look at the aqua blue specks on his head (that rules out any west coast locale). Then his barring is the blue that eventually goes red around 6 months of age and at a year it is completely red. Also, the orange on his underside makes mean lean more Maro than Tamatave. And there are no raised white scales that are common in Tamatave.
Its a Masoala (slightly different than Maro).
-chris
Its a Masoala (slightly different than Maro).
-chris
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Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Brock had it accurately put. This critter needs much more time. The darkening of the bars at this age, often when agitated, is a commopn trait of many locales, especially the west coast (as in not Marantsetra) regions, such as Ambilobe, Nosy Be, and Ambanja. I would place him at 60% or better Ambanja or Ambilobe at this point, but it is still way too soon to be definitive. Be patient. He will be a stud. And he will reveal himself in due time. He looks like he has a good owner 
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
We shall see, but I have worked with many more rare locales then given credit for on this forum. And I have examined them and their coloration more than anyone could ever really want to, except myself being a true chameleon dork. I gave you my reasons for pointing to the east...which I am 100% sure of...and I have given my reasons for pointing specifically to Maroantsetra. I am not pulling this out of my but and here are pictures of just a few of the ones I have raised.
Maroantsetra...which I was 100% sure of at the time:
Same animal a month or so later...where maybe some experience breeders can ID:
Same animal months later and now the untrained eye can see it:
Now for Tamatave, which I bought from Snakes at Sunset because I ID it a Tamatave from the beginning:
And now a little older when more people started agreeing with me:
And now when even the novice agreed with me (ohh picture by Chameleon Kingdom...Nic bought this guy):
Jim, sorry I am sure...and you know we have had our disagreements in the past but you are fine by me. You have produced some good animals and I am truly glad you are adding a lot of good F1s to the industry...we know they are pure! And you know what, you may doubt me, and that is ok. But I won't hold back with the "I told you so!" I have experience All in good fun Jim...seriously!
-chris
Maroantsetra...which I was 100% sure of at the time:
Same animal a month or so later...where maybe some experience breeders can ID:
Same animal months later and now the untrained eye can see it:
Now for Tamatave, which I bought from Snakes at Sunset because I ID it a Tamatave from the beginning:
And now a little older when more people started agreeing with me:
And now when even the novice agreed with me (ohh picture by Chameleon Kingdom...Nic bought this guy):
Jim, sorry I am sure...and you know we have had our disagreements in the past but you are fine by me. You have produced some good animals and I am truly glad you are adding a lot of good F1s to the industry...we know they are pure! And you know what, you may doubt me, and that is ok. But I won't hold back with the "I told you so!" I have experience
All in good fun Jim...seriously!-chris
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Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Chris,
I thank you for the mellowing of the last year or so. This critter needs more time before either you or I can put a definitive stamp on it. I started working with Maro's in 2001, then dropped them, along with Andapa, as their characteristics were a bit too subtle to keep them that distinctive. I do not want the buyer running off trying to find an unrelated Maro female at this point, any more than I would want him to go with my probabilities and buy an Ambanja or Ambilobe. I can definitively say that I have worked with more panthers than anyone in the U.S at this point, maybe by several fold. And the more I know, the more I know that I don't know. This animal could be a locale hybrid too. Some animals reveal themselves young, and others take time. The OP did not mention how it was described as sold, which while not money in the bank, would be considered in evaluating its current appearance.
Hope all is well, and good luck with all.
I thank you for the mellowing of the last year or so. This critter needs more time before either you or I can put a definitive stamp on it. I started working with Maro's in 2001, then dropped them, along with Andapa, as their characteristics were a bit too subtle to keep them that distinctive. I do not want the buyer running off trying to find an unrelated Maro female at this point, any more than I would want him to go with my probabilities and buy an Ambanja or Ambilobe. I can definitively say that I have worked with more panthers than anyone in the U.S at this point, maybe by several fold. And the more I know, the more I know that I don't know. This animal could be a locale hybrid too. Some animals reveal themselves young, and others take time. The OP did not mention how it was described as sold, which while not money in the bank, would be considered in evaluating its current appearance.
Hope all is well, and good luck with all.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Well I stand with what I said...and I honestly can't wait to see him grow up. And I will PM you "I told you so"...lol Also, Jim, I know that you have worked with your fair share of chameleons and I would say you have worked with more Ambilobes than anyone in the country, but I would hesitate to say that is the truth on other locales. Not downgrading your operations, just stating thoughts. I mean it honestly is tough for anyone else to get as many as you being the close ties to a Malagasy woman...and man what I would do for that connection. But like I said most of the stuff that came in to you last year were Ambilobes, Ankaramy, and a few Ambanja...I have seen it in your ads, no sambava, no tamatave, no east. So...time will be the only deciding factor no matter how much I show you or say. Good luck with all your chameleons and Steve show us his progress in the next few months.
-chris
-chris
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
LOL ... to myself
If you follow this critter, as I surely won't, I have no problem if he turns into a poster-child Maro ! Heck, tell me "I told you so" in a few months, and I'll send you a check to buy your favorite domestic six-pack. You are correct with the locales that I have most worked with in the last 18 months ... BUT .... I will assert that I have produced more Tamataves in my day than anyone in the U.S. ... and more Sambavas .... and more Nosy Be's, more Diego's, etc. I have produced few Nosy Mitsio's, and can only lay claim to sitting on about 150 Nosy Faly eggs right now, with more due. But I will buy you that 6-pac, and join you in a post of crow-eating here, letting myself be lambasted all over ! As I alluded to, all my experience has taught me ... begrudgingly ... to profess patience, and a twisted (very twisted) form of humility.
If you follow this critter, as I surely won't, I have no problem if he turns into a poster-child Maro ! Heck, tell me "I told you so" in a few months, and I'll send you a check to buy your favorite domestic six-pack. You are correct with the locales that I have most worked with in the last 18 months ... BUT .... I will assert that I have produced more Tamataves in my day than anyone in the U.S. ... and more Sambavas .... and more Nosy Be's, more Diego's, etc. I have produced few Nosy Mitsio's, and can only lay claim to sitting on about 150 Nosy Faly eggs right now, with more due. But I will buy you that 6-pac, and join you in a post of crow-eating here, letting myself be lambasted all over
! As I alluded to, all my experience has taught me ... begrudgingly ... to profess patience, and a twisted (very twisted) form of humility.
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Kent67
Retired Moderator
Wow, thanks. I'd have to say I agree with Jim. It needs more time before I'd be willing to say, although knowing his source (wc, ch, cb) might help. At first, I thought east coast but there's something about the background green that makes me feel like it came from somewhere in Antsiranana Province, although more northerly than Jim suggested, like Ambilobe or north/northeast of there. Ultimately, as Chris pointed out, the turquoise on the head should mean east coast but I'd want to wait until he's a little more matured to say for sure.
But, I'll guess....Masoala?
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
It can't be a wc Masoala. Masoala has actually been closed by ANGAP for little over a year now. The only way it is Masoala is if he got a baby is if he snuck in my place and took it...
Chris
Chris
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Todnedo
Avid Member
In my experience from 06' to present I see differences in locales by rostral shape, eye turret color, lateral line and body and bar color.
Chris has a good match with maro's. The eye turrets and lateral line match well for the locale at this point. The rostral will take time to tell as well as the FUll body color and barring.
Wether it's wc, ch, cbb, or precision lab bred (or as chad calls it "BREAD") makes no difference in this case. Time will tell.
Chris has a good match with maro's. The eye turrets and lateral line match well for the locale at this point. The rostral will take time to tell as well as the FUll body color and barring.
Wether it's wc, ch, cbb, or precision lab bred (or as chad calls it "BREAD") makes no difference in this case. Time will tell.
I agree with Jim on this one. I'd say leaning Ambanja or Ambilobe at this point with more time needed.
Side note for those of you that weren't here: 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 years ago, there were many more Maros, Tamataves, Sambavas and Eastern type panthers being bred than there are now. Just because they seem to have lost their fire doesn't mean nobody else has had experience with them. I've recently been accused of not working with Eastern locales, just because the poster wasn't around 2 years ago. Chris may or may not be right, but to be the self proclaimed authority just because nobody else has bothered with them in the past 18 months is pretty silly if you ask me.
Side note for those of you that weren't here: 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 years ago, there were many more Maros, Tamataves, Sambavas and Eastern type panthers being bred than there are now. Just because they seem to have lost their fire doesn't mean nobody else has had experience with them. I've recently been accused of not working with Eastern locales, just because the poster wasn't around 2 years ago. Chris may or may not be right, but to be the self proclaimed authority just because nobody else has bothered with them in the past 18 months is pretty silly if you ask me.
CleanLineChameleons
Avid Member
Haha...ok both you and Jim can buy me drinks. Ohh Tyler, if there are so many others working with them...where are the offspring now? Did they all just disappear? Show me some captive Tamataves, show me some captive Maroantsetras...they are all wc...why because people aren't working with them. Ok Mike has some ch Maros...yes...and I know of a handful of Tamataves in the country. But if you have produced them where are they now?
Actually Tyler, I don't want two six packs so you can buy me my crown! Thanks
Actually Tyler, I don't want two six packs so you can buy me my crown! Thanks
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Too young for me to be comfortable making an ID on it. It could be a Maro as Chris said but I wouldn't place money on any locale ID at this point. Keep us posted!
Chris
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
More time needed...
I agree with the more time needed thing. I have to tell you though, I have a male Ambilobe who could be your guy's older brother. Mine is maybe four months older now. When he was younger he looked EXACTLY like yours. Same colors in each part of the body that yours has. Now the brown looking bars and areas on the spine are a deep burgandy red. He still has the sky blue highlights on the spine. They eye turrets have remained the same like your boy's are now. More sky blue has come out on the limbs over time and more lime green in the body. Hints of yellow here and there. He also has some electric blue barring along the lateral line. My mind says you have to give it more time but my heart is screaming Ambilobe. I'll snap some pictures of my boy later when I get some other stuff done
I agree with the more time needed thing. I have to tell you though, I have a male Ambilobe who could be your guy's older brother. Mine is maybe four months older now. When he was younger he looked EXACTLY like yours. Same colors in each part of the body that yours has. Now the brown looking bars and areas on the spine are a deep burgandy red. He still has the sky blue highlights on the spine. They eye turrets have remained the same like your boy's are now. More sky blue has come out on the limbs over time and more lime green in the body. Hints of yellow here and there. He also has some electric blue barring along the lateral line. My mind says you have to give it more time but my heart is screaming Ambilobe. I'll snap some pictures of my boy later when I get some other stuff done
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