Panther Hybrids

In the overall picture, there's nothing "wrong" with crossing color
variants.

In the ethics dept., they COULD be som bad stuff associated with this,
if someoen wants to mis-represent their animals as "pure" it could f-up
the gene pool on the locales. But, we dont' have to worry about this, as
we all know there arent' any people that would be willing to be
unethical to make a dollar.......

I believe we should maintain the pure strains, as they are representative
of the natural coloration that was isolated, via some selective forces, on
their native island. I'm guessing a lot of it is sexual selection, having to
do with the females being more receptive/attracted to a particular
coloration. The males with that coloration stand out more, and
eventually, the coloration becomes more represented in the gene pool.

You have to understand, that there is only so much we can do to
maintain natural conditions - we can only go so far, any further, and
we're fooling ourselves into believing we're replicating nature. We
aren't going to cull 80% of a clutch of Ambilobes, are we? What's the
survival rate, per clutch in the wild? We're letting many undesirable
traits make it to breeding. Someof the colors we seek might be not be
really representative of the natural colors. They might be selected
AGAINST in the wild. They might be connected to other problem
genes, for all we know.

We cannot preserve nature. We can only try to preserve aspects of
nature. In the case of pardalis, we try to preserve a coloration that is
localized. We do it for a few reasons, some more "noble" than others.
Ultimatly, the biggest factor in all this is money. There is a HUGE
market for "Pure" pardalis morphs.

THE reason 100% ambilobe, Nosey Be, and Ambanjas go for $200+
is because of demand. There is less demand for hybrids, cause nobody
knows what the heck it's gonna look like.
Produce a hybrid that is solid red with blue bars and flares up to have
colors unlike anything - it'll sell. Produce a solid blue chameleon with
weird striping and bright colors, it'll sell.
Produce a hybrid with a good mix of colors, but nothing defines, and
nothign really oputstanding...it aint' going to sell.

I hear many people claiming that breeders mix pardalis for greed - I
think that is completely wrong. There is far more profit in breeding
"pure" color morphs. In fact, it's the desire for pure color morphs that
has the pardalis market so high.

Profit isn't bad in this case -it's helped us maintain a pedigree of sorts,
so we can maintain some aspect of madagasgar in tact, not jut the
species.

When a new morph (as opposed to locale) is bred by mixing local;es,
then selectivly breeding the offspring, it'll keep itself "pure" because of
demand. That same market force will keep them from mixing with
other "pure" color morphs.

As it stands now, most mixes are uglier than the pure ones. I'm sure,
with time, and money, and VERY selective breeding, we'll see new
colorations spring up to rival the wild ones. I believe there's nothing
wrong with this, as long as the natural lines are maintained.

I'm trying to be selective with my calyptratus breeding. I've seen
variation in the clutches, one clutch I had over a decade ago, spawned
some males 9" TL, and some were 15", TL. The father was a small,
12" WC. I'm guessing many of them wouldnt' have made it to mate in
the wild, even if they survived. We're probably seeing a lot with
pardalis as well - many of the smaller ones, that would never be able to
defend a territory, get to mate in captivity now.

I try to "pseudo-cull" my veileds. I raise them up for 2-3 months, and
separate the "breeders". I will sell those to the people that want to
breed them responsibly, and sell the smaller ones as pets, at the shows,
to people that don't want to breed them. Not doing this can have quite
a deleterious effect of captive gene pools over just a few generations.
 
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Very well put all across the board.
I never understood the crossing locale thing purly out of greed either. In my opinion....if your greedy.....dont you want to get more money out of each panther??? Wouldn't you want pure stock to sell if your quote on quote...."greedy"???
Unfortunately.....this batch will be producing no more "new morphs" any time soon. Who knows....chances are at least one and probably both of these 2 specific animals would have been part of the 80 + percent that would have never made it in the wild. Funny how things turn out.....aint it.
 
One of the neatest apsects to pardalis and calyptratus (and that locale
of johnstoni!) evolution is the paradoxical coloration. Most chameleons
have evolved coloration that makes them hard to see. These animals
have coloration that makes them more visible. The females and young
stay dull, while the big males seem to defy predators.

It's amazing that the sexual selection has favored bright contrasting
coloration over cryptic coloration. Bright coloration was greater
selective force than cryptic coloration, due to sexual selection. Pretty
cool.

It's got to work on a number of levels - females preferring/seeing
birghter males more. And brighter males being able to keep territory
better than dull males - do dull males back down from bright males of
similar size?

My little male veiled used to make bigger rivals back down all the time.
He was very brightly colored, but only 13" long. He was also very
aggressive, so that might have been a reason as well.

I really wonder what, if any "damage" has been done to calyptratus
gene pools in captivity. They vary so much in a single clutch. I'm
getting in a female from a bloodline wiht quite a bit of variety: The
father was 22" long, but the parents of him weren't big at all. Strange
and complicated.
 
I have also noticed my brighter pardalis always seem to win their "wars" (not that I let it get that far) when it comes to seeing another male. In most cases however, my brighter ones are my biggest ones.
I do have one Ambanja (Pelet) who's kind of like a mini hercules. He's only about 14 inches total length at about a year and a half now. He's not tiny, but he's not huge either. He backs down to nobody. Its kind of like he's got Napolean syndrome or something. He's tiny, but he's always gotta be in charge. lol. I still remember when Old Head (much larger....almost 18 in.) first came to me and I took Pelet out to get Old Head to fire up for some pics. Pelet practically jumped off my hand to get at Old head....He's definately a crazy little guy. And as far as his colors go. Man I wish you guys could see him in person. He's absolutely the most stunning blue i've ever seen. Alas....he's not photo friendly and his colors in no way get even close to coming through in pics.

As far as Calyptratus goes...here are my thoughts. I think your right when you say that many pet quality chams do end up making it into breeding programs just because in captivity there is a much higher survival rate. I'm sure this breeding of sub-par animals adds to the problem.
But I think another large problem is the people who inbreed them. Even I as a rookie did this. When I bought my first trio of Veileds one of the females was related to the male. Someone who I trusted at that time in the hobby told me inbreeding was fine, and animals with this kind of color should be inbred to help refine the color genes.......Man I wish I knew then what I know now. Inbreeding is a problem, because alot of the smaller breeders of veilds out there give people info like this. In my opinion.....this is why there are only a few reputable veild breeders out there. And if your looking for veileds....its a really good idea to do your research and buy from an established bloodline that you know is reputable......With veileds.....good luck finding more than a few. Other than that....all I can say is just make sure your using only the best quality veileds in your breeding projects. And wild stock cant hurt either.
 
http://chameleonsonly.com/veiled_chameleons.htm

This is what a breeder gets for being reputable in veileds. They get the ability to charge $85 pop! I was able to get $50-$75 a piece for my animals last year, at 2 months old, simply because I showed pics of the father.

Inbreeding isn't bad for the animals, by itself. In nature, it happens all the time,a nd is partially responsible for a defined color patter, or other morph. However, in captivity, this is not only done FAR too commonly, and far too much (generation after generation,etc..) - it is COMPLETELY devoid of the selective forces of the wild, that weed out any deleterious phenotypes.

Inbreeding would be far LESS of a problem if breeders culled all the non -desireables, like runts, dwarfs, or abherrently small individuals. This compounds the problem exponentially.

I do not inbreed my animals, as I'm still trying to get really good bloodlines added to my project. I 'm not opposed to it on occation. However, the fact that I see nearly EVERY breeder sell "pairs" of animals, when I know damned well that they only have a single clutch hatching... there are enough people doing it for the hobby. Any good that can come out of inbreeding won't happen on my account.

My male is 17" long, and *nice* looking - his best colors are his everyday, happy colors, NOT his display colors.

The female I'm getting is from a 22" F1 male, with good, balanced, coloration and a nice, tall casque. I'm trying to get aline of calyptratus with consisten coloration (already got that - the babies from last year have better color than the father),a nd consistent size (that's what I lack - I need BIG bloodlines, and I'm getting that today!).
This is my male, puffed up, but with normal colors. his actual fired up colors are, in my opinion NOT as nice, but they are weird - all orange and dark colros - pretty cool, actually. I haven't gotten any pics of it. I'll try this week, before I re-install the bathroom mirror.

My goal is to get 20+ males with coloration similar to my male's:

http://www.zorabellarose.com/Chameleonpics/Bigveild.JPG
http://www.zorabellarose.com/Chameleonpics/daddyveiled
 
They're definately one of the top notch breeders of veilds out there. I'm sure that anything anyone buys from them is not going to dissapoint. Other than them...I know of only a few.
When you see as many veileds on the market as you do.....you have to question what their roots are like. And in most cases....the answers are probably not the most desireable.
Thats an interesting point you've brought up about inbreeding. I've never really sat down and thought about it that way. When you do, you figure that a huge batch of veileds, all born in the same location.....may just end up climbing up the same tree. Interesting stuff. But with this, your right. Nature does pick out the runts and pretty much dispose of whats not meant to be. Whether or not the survival rate, of an inbred batch vs. a batch that is not, is greater or less is irrelevant. All the runts dont make it to breeding age regardless.
In captivity, alot of runts make it because we as people do everything we can for the "underdog." We just need to make sure we dont go to far and create more......
 
which is why selective breeding is so important. Again, we're fooling
ourselves if we think we're replicating nature by selecting certain traits
over another - but we have to try!

Sexual selection, territorial forces and such aside, we should select for
animals that we think would have survived to breed in the wild, or ones
with desireable traits. Either way is better than breeding as many
without any considerations.

My hope is to have a large reptile building in the future, with an area
pretty much free roam,a nd filled iwth lots of different species of plants,
insects and small reptiles - andmaybe a few chameleon species, like
pygmies, plus a breeding group of deremensis. I want to be able t
study their behavior - their social interactions, territorial behavior, and
such. Which males win the females and why? How are disputes
settled, when does it come down to horn-fighting?

For now, it's small groups at best, individuals in a cage for the most
part. The short term goal is establishing the species in captivity, the
other stuff can wait. Veileds have been established very well.

My issue with the industry is the lack of responsibility and accounting by
many breeders. You buy a veiled from a breeder, and most of the time,
you buy simply a veiled. You buy it from the Kammers, and you know
which bloodline it's from! Just that simple aspect of their practice
makes a huge difference. I know breeders that breed these things in the
thousands, every year. They bring the price down. It's not bad,
necessarily, but it's done by sacrificing quality. They sell "pairs" rom the
same clutch, they don't even separate clutches - they have all the babies
lumped together by size, not clutch! They sell them with tiny little cages
that will be outgrown in a few weeks.
This is what happenes when you have non-hobbyists breeding
chameleons. They have no real love of the species. That in general isn't
a bad thing - making money is great, I love capitalism - but when I see
someone's enterprise damaging MY hobby and passion, I get ticked.

I'm thinking about actually registering a buisness this year. I've avoided
it for a long time, for many reasons. First of all, it was my mother,
who'd tell me "you never make money selling them, why bother!?"
(despite the fact that I always made money when I sold them)
Second, it was the price drop of the mid 90's. I sold my veileds for
$125 each, at 2 months old. The first show I did in NC, there were
people selling them at <1 month old for $25 - I was pissed. I sold them
for a profit, but I was dismayed at the drastic loss of value.
Then I decided it would be a bad idea, because I never EVER want to
get to a point wher eI lose interest, or feel I HAVE to sell something, or
else face a hardship - I never want to have to sell a lizard to put food on
the table.
.
Now, I feel like I could really do some good for the hobby. Everyone
that makes money in the chameleon breeding hobby is either into
pardalis, or breeds veileds wholesale. Well, I'm going to breed veileds,
high quality veileds only, and sell them as such. Just like the Kammers
(though I dont' know about $85...). I'm going to start slowly investing
my chameleon money (from the babies I sell) into more veileds. I'll
snag WC when they come in (If Yemen decides to stop hating us), and
be very particular about my breeders. Hopefully, there's a good market
for high quality veileds, like there is for pardalis, and others will follow
suite, and the overall quality of CB calyptratus will rise.
 
Just guessing here, but maybe when a male or female in the wild strays across their natural border habitat, since chameleons, as the name suggests, rely on the 'color' they see when excited by the opposite sex. In a group or area, they are "looking" for that color trigger to know that mating is ok. In the wild, these strangers probably don't cross readily, because the color is wrong...but as captives, and forced together, having no choices, they easily learn to change, adapt and accept new color stimuli, ....kinda like humans have evolved as we integrate...lol
 
Wow reeeeeaally old thread.

This talk begs the question, if you put two receptive females in a room with a male, the male and one female being X and the other female being Y, which would the male naturally be attracted to? Would be be able to tell the difference? That would be an interesting experiment.
 
Just guessing here, but maybe when a male or female in the wild strays across their natural border habitat, since chameleons, as the name suggests, rely on the 'color' they see when excited by the opposite sex. In a group or area, they are "looking" for that color trigger to know that mating is ok. In the wild, these strangers probably don't cross readily, because the color is wrong...but as captives, and forced together, having no choices, they easily learn to change, adapt and accept new color stimuli, ....kinda like humans have evolved as we integrate...lol

Wow. 4 year old thread. Interesting thread though
 
I've really enjoyed reading this.

Just wish there were a few pictures to show some crosses.

For breeders i totally understand the wanting to keep the bloodlines pure... but for the likes of myself looking for a pet i dont see the problem considering a hybrid.

As long as the animals health isnt compromised and they are strong and healthy... just label them correctly when they are being sold on :)
 
oops, wrong word, sorry ... i just heard it through the reading :)

As for the pics, i meant in the thread ;) so they were all in one place :)

Your guy looks great ;)
 
someone say they'd like to see pics?

11 months old a week ago.
 

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mix.

both parents were crosses so he's a general conglomerate of color. (prob didn't spell that correctly).
45.31% Ambanja x 25% Ambilobe x 25% Nosey Be x 4.69% Tamatave
 
fatty?

and now that i'm looking at my own posted photos it may be time again to cut back on fatty's meal portions. He's looking a bit portley.;)
 
As for the pics, i meant in the thread ;) so they were all in one place :)
Your guy looks great ;)

thanks :) I think there are one or two existing threads where people were showing off mixed local panthers. I'll see if I can dig them up for you.

edit to add:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-pics-15433/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/mclovin-fire-16503/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-panther-chameleon-32718/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/ambilobe-x-nosy-38884/
 
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What great colours :D

Totally backs up my opinion on crossing breeding for those wanting a colourful animal as a pet. I would go for this guy purely because i have no intention to breed.
 
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