Other Chameleon Species for newer keepers-

[kplatvoet]

It seems when most new lurkers come here looking for info they usually are recommended toward Veiled and Panthers – I see the reasoning as there's so many more experienced keepers and breeders who have worked with them and new keepers who keep to the sheets have good luck keeping them healthy – Are there any other species that would be considered “easier” species?

I find my deplis to be relatively easy – let me stress – she's captive born – I've spent too much time in the “health section” of this forum to not realize that it makes a gigantic difference- there are a lot of reasons why I prefer my captive born to a veiled, some that are just me and some because I actually think that she's easier to keep than a female veiled would be –

I'd like to hear from some of the more experienced keepers on some choices – I really like the smaller species myself- what are the challenges of keeping one of the other Trioceros as compared to the Xantholophus ? Keep in mind I'm talking captive born – not wild caught, and I would consider a Jackson to be a bit more challenging than a Panther but mostly a matter of following directions? Is it a good idea for a newbie to even think about them without thinking about keeping the blood lines of the imported blood lines going eventually ? It seems to me that to have a good captive population there needs to be both keepers and breeders – I'm too new not to think I might be totally wrong in that observation though -

 

[Mike Fisher]

I believe that most captive bred species are just as easy to keep, they are just not consistently available. Kinyongia matschiei comes to mind as a very easy to keep chameleon that gets to an impressive size. The requirements are similar to veiled and panther, just slightly cooler and wetter. Easier on the electric bill.

I think what drives the USA market is a large species with pretty coloring. That's why veiled and panther are so popular. One other thing that really hurts the diversity in the market.....People won't bat an eye spending $300 on a panther chameleon, but will not spend that for other species that live longer and are more difficult to produce. Until that mindset changes, we will not see a third popular species enter the USA mass market.

 

[kplatvoet]

I think a Kinyonga matschiei is one nice looking chameleon -but I would not have suggested getting one to a newbie - because I up until now I wouldn't have been sure that they would be able to find the right information on it's care - but I think it sounds like a new keeper would actually be better with one from a experienced breeder than an impulse buy at petsmart of a Veiled - Having never had either I'm pretty much trying to clarify my views on the subject.

 

[Chase]

As Mike said, most if not all captive bred specimens will be way easier than their WC counterpart. Part of the joy of working with these animals, is that you make it what you want. Sure, there are specific requirements for their care, but what might work for someone who lives in New York does not mean it will work for someone who lives in Florida.

Specific species that come to mind that are fairly hardy, and forgiving are dilepis, verrucosus, oustaleti.

Somewhat more "harder" species, that if captively bred, are hardy would be things like quadricornis, johnstonii (from what I've been told), jacksonii, fischeri complex, etc.

The thing is, if you pay attention to what you're doing, it's not bad. Nothing is impossible.

Chase

 

[CarlC]

I agree with Mike that once captive bred most species are a lot easier. What it really comes down to for me is if you can provide conditions close to what the species need you'll be fine.

I know I would have no problem saying werneri is 1000x times easier as captive born then wild caught.

Carl

 

[Chase]

I agree with Mike that once captive bred most species are a lot easier. What it really comes down to for me is if you can provide conditions close to what the species need you'll be fine.

I know I would have no problem saying werneri is 1000x times easier as captive born then wild caught.

Carl

Once the wc adults are acclimated, do you think they are fairly easy to care for?

Chase

 

[kplatvoet]

I guess what I'm trying to ask would be if a captive bred werneri takes the same skill level as a captive bred xantholophus? I've come to the opinion that a captive bred werneri would be more likely to do well than a Petsmart xantholophus- but having never having either I don't really know - I have a xantholophus and she's more sensitive to lapses in proper care so I would expect that montane species in general take more attention to detail than some other species - and having a montane species in a dryer part of the country is more of a challenge also but with all things being equal is there that much of a difference ?

 

[Mike Fisher]

I think a Kinyonga matschiei is one nice looking chameleon -but I would not have suggested getting one to a newbie - because I up until now I wouldn't have been sure that they would be able to find the right information on it's care - but I think it sounds like a new keeper would actually be better with one from a experienced breeder than an impulse buy at petsmart of a Veiled - Having never had either I'm pretty much trying to clarify my views on the subject.

Most people would not consider recommending CB Kinyongia matschiei to a newbie, however there are a lot of newbies who jump at the chance to start with a WC Kinyongia multituberculata.

Which do you think is a better bet?

 

[fluxlizard]

I think for newbies, captive born individuals of many of the "lowland" warmth loving species may be suitable. I've bred dilepis and agree that the captive bred individuals were very hardy. Also oustalets are IMO excellent for beginners if captive bred. They have a lot going for them- really cool scalation, spikes on the spine, males are really large and heavy bodied, they tend to be brave and calm, are very hardy.

I think the lowland species are a bit easier as terrarium animals because they are more tolerant of heat and over supplementation mistakes. With montane species you have to worry about excess heat, humidity and ventilation are a bit more tricky as you want enough water for the lizards, but do not have much heat to help evaporation, and the lizards suffer if conditions are too dry, whereas lowland species have more tolerance for dry conditions.

The trick though, is to find captive bred individuals. Wild caughts can be a mess to acclimate and are not really good for beginners. Not many breed most of these because wild caught are too cheap. Which is a shame, as you have found out with your dilepis.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I would expect that montane species in general take more attention to detail than some other species - and having a montane species in a dryer part of the country is more of a challenge also but with all things being equal is there that much of a difference ?

The most important thing is temperature. If you were in the desert Southwest you'd have to be sure you had AC and use LED as a basking bulb, make sure your automated misting unit didn't run out of water etc. Yeah it would be harder to do than if you lived in the Pacific Northwest. Keep in mind though that many of the montanes can be kept and bred outdoors in California. Most of the fischers chameleons are well suited for that. There are other species I've found that could be just as hardy, like T. quadricornis.

It makes more sense for those in the northern parts of the country to keep montanes, but instead the majority keep veiled and panther and struggle with keeping them warm enough and then pay high electric bills.

Ultimately it will take quite a few keepers of one species to breed them in large enough quantity at low enough prices to create a demand. That's how veileds got established in the USA pet trade. In the 90's we couldn't breed them fast enough to keep up.

 

[distortionz]

10 years ago I had a wild caught Senegal chameleon it was the easiest Going most low maintenance reptile that I have ever owned. And it was very receptive to handling as compared to all the a-hole veileds I've had lol

 

[Mike Fisher]

10 years ago I had a wild caught Senegal chameleon it was the easiest Going most low maintenance reptile that I have ever owned. And it was very receptive to handling as compared to all the a-hole veileds I've had lol

My first cham was also a WC Senegal. Veileds were not commonly available in the USA yet.

 

[kplatvoet]

From what I've seen in the health clinic here I think wildcaught are pretty hit and miss - even with experienced keepers. I'll stick to captive bred - I'm glad I spent the extra for Clifford- even if she did turn out to be a girl... I'm sure I saved in vet bills. She's only used her laying bin as a litter box at this point and she's over a year old so I think I did better than I would have done had I gotten a veiled - but from what I think I've been hearing theirs no reason to settle for a pardalis if someone can find a different species with the same requirements. And a hoehnelii or kinyongia are fine if you can provide the right care for a jackson's (I had a beer I can't do the spelling anymore) as long as they are all captive bred.

 

[Andie]

Kate, et al; I appreciated this discussion, as I'm in love with the Dilepis, but cannot find a single CB.

I feel almost forced to purchase a panther, which is not at all, my first choice. If I could swing it, do you more experience keepers think it's possible to get wc Dilepis & breed them?

 

[distortionz]

Kate, et al; I appreciated this discussion, as I'm in love with the Dilepis, but cannot find a single CB.

I feel almost forced to purchase a panther, which is not at all, my first choice. If I could swing it, do you more experience keepers think it's possible to get wc Dilepis & breed them?

Im sure you could breed wc flapnecks. However no breeder will mess with it because there is simply no money in it.. I've seen them in mom and pop pet stores around here for $20 wc.. by the time you breed them food cost are going to be way over what you see in return. So any being breeding experiment would be merely for the love of the species.

 

[Chase]

Im sure you could breed wc flapnecks. However no breeder will mess with it because there is simply no money in it.. I've seen them in mom and pop pet stores around here for $20 wc.. by the time you breed them food cost are going to be way over what you see in return. So any being breeding experiment would be merely for the love of the species.

I agree with you, but not 100%.

You get what you pay for in not just this business, but in anything else in this world. In this case, I would not buy the flapneck from the mom and pop store, but instead from a reputable breeder or importer. I'm working with a group of wild caught, and I must say, they are just the same as how I'm caring for Veileds and they are thriving.

Staying on the topic of dilepis, they are capable of producing large clutches, just as veields are, and there still is money to be made, if that's how you want to look at it. Think about the bigger breeders that sell the Veileds at a young age. You'll pay quite a bit getting it from a well knkwn breeder, or a specific breeding line you want. I think if people would work with some of these species that are not generally worked with because they don't think they'll have success, we could see a lot more species that are not the "difficult WC"

Chase

 

[distortionz]

I agree with you, but not 100%.

You get what you pay for in not just this business, but in anything else in this world. In this case, I would not buy the flapneck from the mom and pop store, but instead from a reputable breeder or importer. I'm working with a group of wild caught, and I must say, they are just the same as how I'm caring for Veileds and they are thriving.

Staying on the topic of dilepis, they are capable of producing large clutches, just as veields are, and there still is money to be made, if that's how you want to look at it. Think about the bigger breeders that sell the Veileds at a young age. You'll pay quite a bit getting it from a well knkwn breeder, or a specific breeding line you want. I think if people would work with some of these species that are not generally worked with because they don't think they'll have success, we could see a lot more species that are not the "difficult WC"

Chase

Very good argument.. I guess it really boils down to what would one actually pay for this cb dilepis lol. There's a market for everything unfortunately ours is flooded with a lot of very few lol

 

[Chase]

Very good argument.. I guess it really boils down to what would one actually pay for this cb dilepis lol. There's a market for everything unfortunately ours is flooded with a lot of very few lol

You'd just have to test it. There was a time where FL Chams had multiple clutches of them hatching, and they were 35? Now, if you look at their site they're 100 for a 2 month old CB. When you're the only one who has them, you can say what their price is

Chase

 

[kplatvoet]

I think there is also problem with breeding dilepis because of the all the subspecies - which was the problem in the only thing I could find on breeding them -
I think part of the reason that newbies are pushed toward panthers and veileds is that relatively newbies like myself don't want to tell newer newbies to go with less common species as they don't know enough to make recommendations -
In a lot of cases I think we're wrong-IMO the same people who are going to do well with their new panther are going to do fine with another species if it can be found from a good breeder. I've been starting to think this for a while, and wanted to know what others though- I know that there will still be people who shouldn't have either and there are some species that are harder to keep but in general it's more important to start with a healthy baby - which is more likely buying from a breeder on the classified here as you tend to get a feel for the person your you're getting it from. This is the premise I was going for and trying to confirm - I've been coming to the opinion that most of problems newbie's have besides starting with a less than healthy chameleon are more related to getting the wrong information and taking short cuts not that one species is harder or easier.

Andie - I would go for the sternfeldi you were looking at - and keep watching Craigs list for another cage - at some point you'll find a captive dilepis it just might take a while - you know you wanted two anyway... and it's got a way better chance of being healthy than one from Petsmart.

Chase- I paid the 100 but all she's cost me since was 16 dollars to drop off a clean fecal... there's no such thing as a free lunch

 

[Chase]

I think there is also problem with breeding dilepis because of the all the subspecies - which was the problem in the only thing I could find on breeding them -
I think part of the reason that newbies are pushed toward panthers and veileds is that relatively newbies like myself don't want to tell newer newbies to go with less common species as they don't know enough to make recommendations -
In a lot of cases I think we're wrong-IMO the same people who are going to do well with their new panther are going to do fine with another species if it can be found from a good breeder. I've been starting to think this for a while, and wanted to know what others though- I know that there will still be people who shouldn't have either and there are some species that are harder to keep but in general it's more important to start with a healthy baby - which is more likely buying from a breeder on the classified here as you tend to get a feel for the person your you're getting it from. This is the premise I was going for and trying to confirm - I've been coming to the opinion that most of problems newbie's have besides starting with a less than healthy chameleon are more related to getting the wrong information and taking short cuts not that one species is harder or easier.

Andie - I would go for the sternfeldi you were looking at - and keep watching Craigs list for another cage - at some point you'll find a captive dilepis it just might take a while - you know you wanted two anyway... and it's got a way better chance of being healthy than one from Petsmart.

Chase- I paid the 100 but all she's cost me since was 16 dollars to drop off a clean fecal... there's no such thing as a free lunch

"Newbies" only suggest to others about Veileds and Panthers because no one else suggests anything.

Your point about the subspecies, just like any other subspecies, there are identifiable qualities for each. Specifically, C. dilepis dilepis are the ones to come in for the most part. C. quilensis comes from the same parts as does C. d. dilepis, but do not possess the large occipital lobes as C. d. dilepis. The only other subspecies I've ever seen or heard of is C. roperi, but unlike the other two subspecies they lack tarsal spurs, making it easier to identify them.

Also, I never suggested that buying CB meant you were in the clear. Look at all the problems people have with Veileds or Panthers. I'm glad you got a CB one, and I'm glad you've only had to do one fecal check (assuming it was precautionary and it came back clear, as expected).

Chase