Franquixote
Established Member
I have dubias going which don't smell at all, the orange heads smell like a sweaty horse. Is there that much additional benefit in feeding both?
orange head roaches smell - are they really worth the extra nutrition?
- Thread starter Franquixote
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Extensionofgreen
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes, they do have a horse/barnyard smell. Yes, they are superior feeders to dubia, because they contain more soft tissue in relation to the harder, indigestible exoskeleton. I also have superior feeding responses from my animals that eat them. Keep them bone dry to reduce odor and make sure they are well ventilated. Put some dry peat moss or hardwood mulch in the bottom to reduce odor and provide the nymphs somewhere to burrow. They don’t smell all that bad and certainly the smell is undetectable, except with your nose directly in the bin. Chameleon poop smells far worse.
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chow down Titan!
Franquixote
Established Member
So then the question becomes are the dubia superfluous? I mean, what exactly are we gaining nutritionally by offering both?
It's all good and well to day it enhances the animal's life to have options, but since we are all giving supplements and the gut loads are the same and beyond that there's only protein, fat, and carbs, isn't it superfluous to spend limited time on maintaining a similar food item that could be better spent attending to enclosures, doing parasite checks (I have a scope), etc.? I have a very limited amount of time and I'm stretched thin.
It's all good and well to day it enhances the animal's life to have options, but since we are all giving supplements and the gut loads are the same and beyond that there's only protein, fat, and carbs, isn't it superfluous to spend limited time on maintaining a similar food item that could be better spent attending to enclosures, doing parasite checks (I have a scope), etc.? I have a very limited amount of time and I'm stretched thin.
Extensionofgreen
Chameleon Enthusiast
A roach is a roach is a roach, BUT not necessarily. Each species of roach is going to convert the nutrients in the gutload into various proteins, fats, and stores of vitamins and minerals and therefore, the amount of fat, protein, and other components will vary from dubia to orange heads, to hissers, for example. I find dubia to be the least appealing to the animals, as far as initiating a feeding response, but I would replace them with another species, rather than omit them. I use my own dubia as “booster”, meaning if an animal has slowed down or refused food for a time, when they do eat, I’ll slip some dubia nymphs in, as they chew, to make sure they get enough and to ensure they are getting supplemented. Dubia are popular because they breed quickly. They aren’t the most nutritious or even the most applealing roach as far as the predator is concerned.
To sum it up, different roach species offer slight differences in nutrition and variety. If you are using a lot of other feeders, you could get away with having only one roach species, but I find roaches way less work to feed than hornworms and silkworms, that eating artificial chow, full of who knows what preservatives and chemicals. I have around 10 roach species for my 3 chameleons and arachnids. I supplement with occasional hornworms, silkworms, superworms, and I use crickets, wild caught items, and the moths that result from the horn and silkworms. Parsonii don’t respond to smaller prey, like BSF. Some parsonii love blue bottle flies and they are fairly easy to manage, but they aren’t easy to gutload.
To sum it up, different roach species offer slight differences in nutrition and variety. If you are using a lot of other feeders, you could get away with having only one roach species, but I find roaches way less work to feed than hornworms and silkworms, that eating artificial chow, full of who knows what preservatives and chemicals. I have around 10 roach species for my 3 chameleons and arachnids. I supplement with occasional hornworms, silkworms, superworms, and I use crickets, wild caught items, and the moths that result from the horn and silkworms. Parsonii don’t respond to smaller prey, like BSF. Some parsonii love blue bottle flies and they are fairly easy to manage, but they aren’t easy to gutload.
Franquixote
Established Member
My panther won't touch superworms at all, I even tried letting him go for almost a day without food and putting them on the decor instead of a cup, zero, zilch, nada response but he took a cricket in a second after I ended the experiment.
I still maintain that given the feeders are not wild and getting micronutrients from the environment, that they are basically just fat, protein, and carbs gut loaded with the same stuff and that the reptile is getting vitamins and minerals from supplements so I don't see a valid argument (nutritionally) why it would matter. If the orange heads have less chitin then what's the point of the dubia too?
I still maintain that given the feeders are not wild and getting micronutrients from the environment, that they are basically just fat, protein, and carbs gut loaded with the same stuff and that the reptile is getting vitamins and minerals from supplements so I don't see a valid argument (nutritionally) why it would matter. If the orange heads have less chitin then what's the point of the dubia too?
Scottsquatch
Chameleon Enthusiast
I think ext.of grn said different roaches metabolize foods differently creating different nutrients. This gives your cham a more varied diet.
kelly_girl199
Avid Member
Bearded dragon poop smells 10xworse than the chameleons
Mai
Established Member
Well that’s good to know lol
The only roaches I have found here in Florida are discord’s and I have only given it one time to my dragon looked like she crunched a long time before she swallowed it. So not sure if it’s a good choice for my new Cham I’m getting. Are they easy to digest??
Extensionofgreen
Chameleon Enthusiast
hopps31
Avid Member
Just my two cents, I have had orange heads and red runners, I don’t keep either anymore. I have asthma and they both affect my lungs. I also can not stand the smell, it stunk up the whole room. I do keep dubia but have to wear a mask changing the bin. In order to give my chams different foods I have to be creative and order more feeders. I do have snails, BSFL, supers, dubias, green banana roches and Isopods. I order red runners, hornworms, sikworms, blue bottle spikes, and butterworms every alternating month. Side note my Panther will not eat supers either, but will about jump in my hands for a silk
laurie
Retired Moderator
Just my two cents, I have had orange heads and red runners, I don’t keep either anymore. I have asthma and they both affect my lungs. I also can not stand the smell, it stunk up the whole room. I do keep dubia but have to wear a mask changing the bin. In order to give my chams different foods I have to be creative and order more feeders. I do have snails, BSFL, supers, dubias, green banana roches and Isopods. I order red runners, hornworms, sikworms, blue bottle spikes, and butterworms every alternating month. Side note my Panther will not eat supers either, but will about jump in my hands for a silk
I hear your problem with asthma, I also have asthma. I have a full set up to deal with the problem. I have a hood attached to a respirator. Not fun, but it sure works. You should consider one.
hopps31
Avid Member
That sounds interesting, could you maybe send me a link or tell me a little more about what the hood is? I am always willing to try new helpful things out
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
How are you guys keeping your orange heads? They should have a mild defensive order but it smelling like humid and sweaty all the time shows you don't have enough whatever of what you need. They do better with more bioactive roach enclosures because they need high humidity. Include sprintails and isopods as a clean up crew and a large ventilation area. You should be good. Also it depends on what you feel all animals including inverts on what they will smell like. Make sure you are feeding them as species appropriate and natural diet as you can. They need high protein vegetation based food
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
To clear up how they more absorb things differently. Orange heads and dubia come from two completely genus. Blaptica Dubia and Eublaberus prosticus. Orange heads like many other eublaberus so. Crave high protein and certain mineral. Which means they will utilize it better and absorb it better making it easier for your reptile to absorb more as a whole since the prey item has already done most of them work.
Franquixote
Established Member
Andee, could you either describe the ideal bio-active substrate for the roaches or point me to a link that does a good job of it? Does bio-active mean you never have to clean the enclosure fully, and just remove dead ones and change food?
Also, I still don't understand what "creating different nutrients" means. Nutrients are nutrients, and while I believe that vitamins, minerals, and amino acids in your (or your animal's) diet are better obtained from whole, natural sources- like getting vitamin C from and orange instead of a pill- is better, I don't see the logic of how getting protein, fat, carbs, and vitamins from one vs. several roach species would make a difference.
It doesn't matter if I get my potassium from a banana or some coconut water, so I'm trying to understand why, beyond the possibility that the lizard craves variety, that it makes a difference nutritionally. Not being stubborn, just trying to understand and best use my limited time and resources.
Also, I still don't understand what "creating different nutrients" means. Nutrients are nutrients, and while I believe that vitamins, minerals, and amino acids in your (or your animal's) diet are better obtained from whole, natural sources- like getting vitamin C from and orange instead of a pill- is better, I don't see the logic of how getting protein, fat, carbs, and vitamins from one vs. several roach species would make a difference.
It doesn't matter if I get my potassium from a banana or some coconut water, so I'm trying to understand why, beyond the possibility that the lizard craves variety, that it makes a difference nutritionally. Not being stubborn, just trying to understand and best use my limited time and resources.
Andee
Chameleon Enthusiast
So lemme try and explain:
Bioactive for feeders is literally just eco earth, oak leaves and moss, that's it. Then put in a cleanner crew, usually doing a temperate, or a mildly tropical springtail colony and a dwarf tropical isopod species is all that is required for that. I usually don't ever have dead roaches I have to clean. As far as cleaning food, just clean old food, no mold.
I don't know how to explain the nutrient part very easily. I can try.... But it won't be easy because most people won't understand because most people aren't even aware of what are fat soluable vitamins and what it means. And then when they do when I talk about how vitamins and minerals degrade even from whole sources it sounds like I am crazy. So here it goes.
Feed the amount of prey you currently feed is fine. You are feeding 4-5 prey items, that is fine and way above what most people do. But lets go with something different. Protein and fat and carb amounts are at different levels almost in every roach species. Hisser roaches have higher fat ratios but also much higher protein availability that is absorbed when eaten because of how they are.... built. That's macro nutrients without even going into micro nutrients. Now lets address something simple like vitamin A. Silkworms, fed on only mulberry leaves, have about 3x more preformed vitamin A in their system than any other insect. (still far less than any chameleon needs but yes)
Why are you having issues making a schedule? What I don't understand is what you are trying to make a schedule out of? You feed your chameleon, fill the mister real quick if needed. And leave. The lights turn on and off by themselve?
Bioactive for feeders is literally just eco earth, oak leaves and moss, that's it. Then put in a cleanner crew, usually doing a temperate, or a mildly tropical springtail colony and a dwarf tropical isopod species is all that is required for that. I usually don't ever have dead roaches I have to clean. As far as cleaning food, just clean old food, no mold.
I don't know how to explain the nutrient part very easily. I can try.... But it won't be easy because most people won't understand because most people aren't even aware of what are fat soluable vitamins and what it means. And then when they do when I talk about how vitamins and minerals degrade even from whole sources it sounds like I am crazy. So here it goes.
Feed the amount of prey you currently feed is fine. You are feeding 4-5 prey items, that is fine and way above what most people do. But lets go with something different. Protein and fat and carb amounts are at different levels almost in every roach species. Hisser roaches have higher fat ratios but also much higher protein availability that is absorbed when eaten because of how they are.... built. That's macro nutrients without even going into micro nutrients. Now lets address something simple like vitamin A. Silkworms, fed on only mulberry leaves, have about 3x more preformed vitamin A in their system than any other insect. (still far less than any chameleon needs but yes)
Why are you having issues making a schedule? What I don't understand is what you are trying to make a schedule out of? You feed your chameleon, fill the mister real quick if needed. And leave. The lights turn on and off by themselve?
Franquixote
Established Member
I don't have a timer yet, I need one that can do down to individual minutes because my rs400 monsoon is not working right and I can't afford any more equipment right now. I turn the lights on before work and off around 7.
Not a schedule, a routine- for example, I can't really find the right sized disposable plates to put the insect food on and I don't have time to sanitize 10 plates a night (one for dry food, one for fruit/veggie, bug burger, etc.). My enclosure needs remediation in that the bottom needs to be siliconed to prevent escapees and I need to pour some epoxy and cut a drain in. It was originally built for geckos but I fell in love with it (I'll post pics when I get a chance to take some). It's kind of a custom piece of furniture. Right now I try and cup feed or hand feed to minimize the number of feeders that make it to the bottom but I now that under the mat I am using (a cut to size exercise type mat that has held up pretty good, no mold yet but just a matter of time) there are going to be a ton of feeders. I have a planter in there with Madagascar jasmine that complicates things a bit, I cut 2 cedar posts for blocks to put it on but I need a whole free weekend to tackle this part and I haven't had that since my teaching job started in Sept.
So every day it's a struggle to just clean and feed everything. And then there are a few little side projects like the snails I posted about over the summer ended up laying eggs before I got rid of them and they ended up hatching so I have their little tupperware thing to deal with food and cleaning, but I'm sure you can appreciate that since I managed to get the eggs to hatch that I'm interested in seeing how fast they grow. I know just cutting that out would help but I have a curious mind and feel a bit compelled to hang on to them a while.
I guess I am really picky about cleanliness and stuff and I have to say that the chameleon seems to be pretty healthy and happy, but I'm busting my butt to pull it together!
I do understand the differences in nutrients, but particularly on the dubia vs. orange heads, it seems like splitting hairs if we are supplementing with vitmains/minerals and offering several other feeders. Seems to me it's like saying that a person would be healthier if they ate both cod AND haddock, or peaches AND nectarines...
Not a schedule, a routine- for example, I can't really find the right sized disposable plates to put the insect food on and I don't have time to sanitize 10 plates a night (one for dry food, one for fruit/veggie, bug burger, etc.). My enclosure needs remediation in that the bottom needs to be siliconed to prevent escapees and I need to pour some epoxy and cut a drain in. It was originally built for geckos but I fell in love with it (I'll post pics when I get a chance to take some). It's kind of a custom piece of furniture. Right now I try and cup feed or hand feed to minimize the number of feeders that make it to the bottom but I now that under the mat I am using (a cut to size exercise type mat that has held up pretty good, no mold yet but just a matter of time) there are going to be a ton of feeders. I have a planter in there with Madagascar jasmine that complicates things a bit, I cut 2 cedar posts for blocks to put it on but I need a whole free weekend to tackle this part and I haven't had that since my teaching job started in Sept.
So every day it's a struggle to just clean and feed everything. And then there are a few little side projects like the snails I posted about over the summer ended up laying eggs before I got rid of them and they ended up hatching so I have their little tupperware thing to deal with food and cleaning, but I'm sure you can appreciate that since I managed to get the eggs to hatch that I'm interested in seeing how fast they grow. I know just cutting that out would help but I have a curious mind and feel a bit compelled to hang on to them a while.
I guess I am really picky about cleanliness and stuff and I have to say that the chameleon seems to be pretty healthy and happy, but I'm busting my butt to pull it together!
I do understand the differences in nutrients, but particularly on the dubia vs. orange heads, it seems like splitting hairs if we are supplementing with vitmains/minerals and offering several other feeders. Seems to me it's like saying that a person would be healthier if they ate both cod AND haddock, or peaches AND nectarines...
