OPINION: Why I don't feed crickets

[Kaizen]

Why would people think that all roaches have the same nutrition? Maybe similar, but different species have their own food preferences, colors, textures, etc.

I agree 100%. It’d be weird if all roach species had the same nutritional make-up.

 

[CasqueAbove]

the inanswered question is whether a higher b
Nutritious food
Paxkednin such hard shell
Is a real positove for rhe chameleon ornitnis actually nit better.

i am hesitant both to accept as well as dney. But as asvixate diaboli, i tend more tonsay: poor and low nitrition food is more natiral, lots of undigestanle but sift remnants are better rhan what stays after roaches...
The poop is NOat same asbin the wildnin captovity especially if we feed roaches (not so crickets, in their case it is macroscopically identical)

So given for me my winter time supply of insects is limited, so I need a go to staple. In the summer per PetNcs advice I will be catching flying insects during summer. I have a small screen cage 16*13*18 i think. I will collect insects , I have an 8 year old so that is easy, put them in the cage for 24 hours, then feed the survivors.
This will be their only summer food.

It is the winters that their diet would primarily roaches.

PetNcs, I watched your video on an obese chameleon. It was very informative. So I am now focusing on not over feeding. I have cut diet, as I had bad info, my current is/was 2 3/4 in dubia every other day. My female is showing her colors, I have not increased food. Last time she was greatly over fed.

 

[cyberlocc]

Easy compare of difference.

While both my Hissers and My OHs, both eat the same gutloads usually, the Hissers eat loads of Oak Leaf litter I give them. The OHs don't do that, so that's quite a vast nutritional difference.

 

[PetNcs]

In @Gingero ’s defence, most of the common feeders we feed are nocturnal insects from very different environments than those of our captive charges. In North America, the two popular cricket species are brown and banded; both of which are nocturnal, and the latter is a cave dwelling species. The common feeder roaches are also almost exclusively nocturnal. The hornworms we feed are toxic in the wild as they eat tomato and tabbacco, the silks are from China, the supers are from South America, and I doubt whether any Cham ever ate a bsfl in the wild. Waxies and butters are new world insects too. So, when it comes to the commonly available feeders, none are natural, none figure regularly in the Wild diet of our pets, and if some are gross to some people, then I don’t see why expressing that fact is problematic.

i respect deeply all what you are saying and do not want to overdiscuss, as you nake the dame point as ai do iften:
Whetvrhey est we do not feed to them
And
What we feed to them, they never est in the wild....

butnI tell you ehy the concerns oresented in the. Ideo are hard to accept for me:

it pits human comfort high above the welfsre of the animals
And thisnis hard to accept for me.

if exagerrated, I was a witness of several cases, when people, based on the recommendation of the care sheets here (sic!) „understood“ the message in it: „Veiled chameleons are more omnivorous than most chameleon species and many enjoy munching on plant leaves and fruit in addition to using their long sticky tongue to catch live insects.“ as
They are omnivorous
So, aame as humans, they csn decide whether to eat animaös or dtay vehetarians

and bexause tjey said „OMH the critters are nasty, smelly, jumpy and ugly ....“, rhey decided to feed them witj Kale and Carrott!!!

now I do kot say rjat thisnis recommended in the video

BUT
The LOGIC is same: humac comfort over animal needs

and thisbis where ai am not comfortable with it, when on the top ai do not see any purpose why to present it

 

[CasqueAbove]

I agree 100%. It’d be weird if all roach species had the same nutritional make-up.

It would be significant differences, and my logic was based on the fact that they are feed similar, as they are mass produced. Because ultimately yes there has to be some difference.

 

[CasqueAbove]

Easy compare of difference.

While both my Hissers and My OHs, both eat the same gutloads usually, the Hissers eat loads of Oak Leaf litter I give them. The OHs don't do that, so that's quite a vast nutritional difference.

True, but I am thinking more if I have to but them. They may not do as well as you. Yours is passion, theirs is profit.

 

[PetNcs]

My veileds will eat whenever, but my panthers are like this. Won’t even shoot at superworms until after noon.

IMHO all these captive observations are heavily biassed by two facts:

we feed the chameleons in general with MUCH bigger feeders than what is their daily issue in the wild.
plus, as a tendency, we overfeed them.

I have never seen any veiled in the wild edceeding 100gramm weight, can you imagine? Not in dry season, in the rainy season: huge males, over 50cm long...

So, their tendency to be picky is driven by these two fsctors heavily IMHO

in the wild, they shoot tiny stuff all day long.

i have laid under trees many full days to observe what they are doing.
they feed whenever they get the chance
Regardless time of the day!

 

[PetNcs]

So given for me my winter time supply of insects is limited, so I need a go to staple. In the summer per PetNcs advice I will be catching flying insects during summer. I have a small screen cage 16*13*18 i think. I will collect insects , I have an 8 year old so that is easy, put them in the cage for 24 hours, then feed the survivors.
This will be their only summer food.

It is the winters that their diet would primarily roaches.

PetNcs, I watched your video on an obese chameleon. It was very informative. So I am now focusing on not over feeding. I have cut diet, as I had bad info, my current is/was 2 3/4 in dubia every other day. My female is showing her colors, I have not increased food. Last time she was greatly over fed.

keeping them slim has many mire benefits than we tend to thing if actually:
Natural shape and beauty
Increased activity
Longer lives
Less eggs in females
Less tendency to lay infertile clutches (can be stopped by moderate feeding and lower temperatures fully or restricted to once per year)
Reduced pickiness
Higher will to breed (if induced properly)
More “trust” to keeper (they are hungry, they have no time to be frumpy, especially if tiu bring them food LOL)
More interaction
More action to be observed
Etc etc

 

[Ramrod]

In @Gingero ’s defence, most of the common feeders we feed are nocturnal insects from very different environments than those of our captive charges. In North America, the two popular cricket species are brown and banded; both of which are nocturnal, and the latter is a cave dwelling species. The common feeder roaches are also almost exclusively nocturnal. The hornworms we feed are toxic in the wild as they eat tomato and tabbacco, the silks are from China, the supers are from South America, and I doubt whether any Cham ever ate a bsfl in the wild. Waxies and butters are new world insects too. So, when it comes to the commonly available feeders, none are natural, none figure regularly in the Wild diet of our pets, and if some are gross to some people, then I don’t see why expressing that fact is problematic.

Delete

 

[Kaizen]

Delete

?

 

[CasqueAbove]

keeping them slim has many mire benefits than we tend to thing if actually:
Natural shape and beauty
Increased activity
Longer lives
Less eggs in females
Less tendency to lay infertile clutches (can be stopped by moderate feeding and lower temperatures fully or restricted to once per year)
Reduced pickiness
Higher will to breed (if induced properly)
More “trust” to keeper (they are hungry, they have no time to be frumpy, especially if tiu bring them food LOL)
More interaction
More action to be observed
Etc etc

Well I definitly see some of this. I often hand feed, so if I extend a palm she comes running, even if I don't have food. So is my amount of 2 3/4 dubia a good amount? I was at 2 to 3 adult size. OMG, should I feed more smaller roaches ?

 

[Kaizen]

Well I definitly see some of this. I often hand feed, so if I extend a palm she comes running, even if I don't have food. So is my amount of 2 3/4 dubia a good amount? I was at 2 to 3 adult size. OMG, should I feed more smaller roaches ?

As Petr said, more smaller food items are preferable. There is evidence that insect nutrient uptake decreases with maturity, especially in crickets. Studies indicate that young crickets take up far more vitamin A and D than their older counterparts. So, for maximum nutritional benefit (including correction of the poor calcium phosphorus ratio) via gutloading, younger crickets are better. Unsubstantiated though the generalization to other feeders might be, it makes intuitive sense. So, younger roaches are probably better than adults. At any rate, your adults are your breeders, so why feed them off?
As to amount, I think a meal of .5 - .75 grams three times/week is lots. This is about three small crix, three or four 1/4” dubias, or two superworms, three times/week.

 

[Bigsky]

My favorites are wild caught moths.

 

[CasqueAbove]

As Petr said, more smaller food items are preferable. There is evidence that insect nutrient uptake decreases with maturity, especially in crickets. Studies indicate that young crickets take up far more vitamin A and D than their older counterparts. So, for maximum nutritional benefit (including correction of the poor calcium phosphorus ratio) via gutloading, younger crickets are better. Unsubstantiated though the generalization to other feeders might be, it makes intuitive sense. So, younger roaches are probably better than adults. At any rate, your adults are your breeders, so why feed them off?
As to amount, I think a meal of .5 - .75 grams three times/week is lots. This is about three small crix, three or four 1/4” dubias, or two superworms, three times/week.

I over fed due to bad info. This all has made my world easier. I was trying to raise all these big size roaches, and they take a bit to grow. More smaller ones is easy, I am already there.
I will definitely be decreasing their intake. Thank You. I have chickens, and a bearded so no problem getting rid of extras.

I am thinking they are like fish in that they will overeat, and if the act hungry that is normal.

 

[cyberlocc]

As Petr said, more smaller food items are preferable. There is evidence that insect nutrient uptake decreases with maturity, especially in crickets. Studies indicate that young crickets take up far more vitamin A and D than their older counterparts. So, for maximum nutritional benefit (including correction of the poor calcium phosphorus ratio) via gutloading, younger crickets are better. Unsubstantiated though the generalization to other feeders might be, it makes intuitive sense. So, younger roaches are probably better than adults. At any rate, your adults are your breeders, so why feed them off?
As to amount, I think a meal of .5 - .75 grams three times/week is lots. This is about three small crix, three or four 1/4” dubias, or two superworms, three times/week.

So Petrs Caresheet, says to feed 1 Mediterranean Cricket per day, about in volume.

Med. cricks, average at about .75g (females .9, and males .6)

So about 5-5.5 grams per week, to give a ±.25g

so 3 1.75g meals per week would give you the 5.25gs per week.


Petr thinks, that most overfeed, and his diet is not overfeeding. So I would say, but lets let Petr answer, that your suggestion might not be enough.

Of course this is species depending and I am talking full grown male, Panther/Velieds.

@PetNcs your thoughts?

 

[CasqueAbove]

My favorites are wild caught moths.

Do you get them at night, or day type like cabbage moth.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So Petrs Caresheet, says to feed 1 Mediterranean Cricket per day, about in volume.

Med. cricks, average at about .75g (females .9, and males .6)

So about 5-5.5 grams per week, to give a ±.25g

so 3 1.75g meals per week would give you the 5.25gs per week.

got it. scale added to list

 

[PetNcs]

Well I definitly see some of this. I often hand feed, so if I extend a palm she comes running, even if I don't have food. So is my amount of 2 3/4 dubia a good amount? I was at 2 to 3 adult size. OMG, should I feed more smaller roaches ?

Yes this I would advise you
Basically I still have feeling you overfeed
but it depends a lot also from the conditions you keep it at: the higher temps
The faster metabolism

my suggestion would be: use scales
And there yiu will exactly see the facts and progress
If weight is stable, itnis ballanced but you need to go down as I understand...

if you want a bit closer look, drop me a pic in PM,
i will gladly assist

 

[PetNcs]

My favorites are wild caught moths.

if speaking about chameleons, Lepidopterans are not that frequent bite...
And even observing them in case of wide abundance of diverse food, they tend to oick dipterans and hymenopterans mich eagerly than a butterfly ot moth

 

[PetNcs]

So Petrs Caresheet, says to feed 1 Mediterranean Cricket per day, about in volume.

Med. cricks, average at about .75g (females .9, and males .6)

So about 5-5.5 grams per week, to give a ±.25g

so 3 1.75g meals per week would give you the 5.25gs per week.


Petr thinks, that most overfeed, and his diet is not overfeeding. So I would say, but lets let Petr answer, that your suggestion might not be enough.

Of course this is species depending and I am talking full grown male, Panther/Velieds.

@PetNcs your thoughts?

i like your approach of being as exact as possible. However letnus be a bit more practical
bexause there is one danger: if we stick too much to number we might get distracted from the principles

look, my caresheet has been designed specifically for newbies and for my Fab group Chameleon Care101. The philosophy is simple:give to newcomer an instruction what to do concretely so that it is easy, right and safe. The logic bases on andragogic systems that also work with the paradigm:
1. For the unexperienced, give instruction and algorythms, answer their basic wuestion “ehat I should do?”
2. For advanced, give explanation and make emphasis on “Why it is like that and how it works?”
3. Fir Experts, give platform to experience, empiry and science and let them construct the way how to work at kevels 1 and 2 efficiently.

This is why my care sheet is laconic, no explanations and no fabulization.

The care sheet is for beginners, to out them on the track and provide them safe basic instructions, on which they can build their qualifications further.

So, if I am accused from the fact it is dry and not comprehensive and not explaining and black and white in some statements not showing the possibilities and alternatives: YES! Exactly this is its philosophy. This is my firm belief (based in 20years of practice in corporate development, training, coaching, mentoring and consulting - which is where I earn my bread, not biology): this is the basics and the right approach.

and then there is another caresheet,
Much more comprehensive and with much moreavanced info - for advanced people. And if course it differs. Not in principal but in details. Because its ohilosophy is different, there fire the stule and logic is different!

therefore J am absolutely confused by the CF caresheets, that have no obvious philosophy, that have been redone and enhanced several times, that use lots of BS around, usage of unnecessary and wrong terms (it is OK for newbies, no need to be rigorous), jumping from supersafe to super liberal, giving sometimes instructions and sometimes just weak talking around. Itnis conservative and outdated in style and info. And itnis misleading in many aspects through not proper formulations (like the mentioned omnivory that is incorrect or the refusal of recommending night fogging or telling the truth about longevity etc etc...
All that are seeds of wrong perception and wrong practice)
Sorry to run around but I mean it, but your leadership decided not to redo the caresheets, at least this is what I was told.

now,
If we discuss the recommendations of food ammounts, I would be here with subject matter experts More on the side of empiry and not exacg numbers and ai e xolain why.

The soeed and quality of digestion is dependent from many factors such as
- temperature and its gradients and regimes and oeriodicity
- hydration and its regimes and leriodicity and methods
- airflow, has exchange
- quality of the feeder itself
- quality of supplementation and its philosophy
- cage settings and equipment and technology
- age of animal
- outdoor-indoor caging or hybrid one
- nutritive state if animal (skinny or obese...)
- physiological state (gravidity, mating oeriod, season, rest, brummation etc)
- health status
Etc etc etc

now, please make a formula and find out strict dependencies... not reallistic, right?

so, therefore my suggestion is much more oractical. Letnus work rather with a much more general (and knowingly incorrect) basic frame recommendation
AND
recommend to the keeper to adjust based on local conditions
The only exact measurement required is:
SIZE
WEIGHT

And the keeper has to adjust based on measured weight data displayed in time...

that is my humble view