Nutrients and chameleons

A

acfi

New Member
Hi,

My boyfriend's panther chamleon PJ seems to be getting sick. I took care of PJ for 20 days when he was out of town. He drank several times a day (bottled water, mist), and ate a good amount of various worms and crickets that he usually does. I am very good at taking care of him, however my boyfriend did NOT tell me to sprinkle nutrients on his food once a week. PJ was completely fine until about the day my boyfriend got home from the trip, and now is very lathargic and not eating or drinking much. Can 3 weeks of skipped nutrients kill him?? If we take him to the vet could they do something? My boyfriend had his first chameleon Picasso for 12 years. PJ is only 2 years old. I'm very worried.
Any information would be of help!
Thanks!
 
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Panther chameleon, Male, 2 years (est.)...been in care for 1 year
Handling - Chameleon is handled lightly a couple times a week
Feeding - Chameleon is given various kinds of worms that are available to him when he is hungry...has never had past problems eating. I'm not home right now but one of the kinds of worms are little and white, and the others look like centipedes
Supplements - Again, I'm not at home so I don't know the brand. I know that he used 2 different kinds that are used together (same brand) and he says he does it once a week
Watering - He is misted 2 times a day for about 10 minutes each time (or until he drinks enough) He is misted, and we use bottled drinking water. He is always watched to make sure he drinks.
Fecal Description - His droppings are dark brown. He has never been tested
History - When he was purchased he was very healthy. My boyfriend has 12+ years of experience handling reptiles and chameleons. Up until now he has been active, bright colored and no problems

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Wooden cage with screening. Dimensions about 7X4X3
Lighting - Not sure of the brand/time of light. He has 2 lamps that turn off at night around 12pm and back on around 6am. We live in Florida so it is hot outside, the inside of our house is usually at about 70 degrees
Temperature - I'm not sure of the specifics. The lowest overnight temperature is 70 degrees
Humidity - We live in Tampa so outside is very humid, and this winter has not been cold at all. The inside of the house is always at 70 degrees, plus his lights which he enjoys and stays under for most of the day. He also usually climbs all around his cage, up and down, on the screen, his branches...very active
Plants - There is a live plant in the cage, I'm not sure what kind it is
Placement - The top of the cage is about 7 feet from the floor. The cage is in front of a very large window with thin bamboo blinds
Location - Tampa, FL

Current Problem - Chameleon has been very lathargic and is not eating at all. Drinking not much. The problem has persisted for about 7 days

My boyfriend is sure that it was the missed nutrients that is causing the problem. I made sure he drank everyday, and nothing stressful or traumatic happened. The fact that he suddenly became sick while I was taking care of him for 3 weeks makes me think I did something wrong
 
I half agree with your bf on the suppliments
HOWEVER, it is not because you didnt give any... so breathe. ;)

Panthers need a calcium without d3 for every feeding, a calcium with d3 for twice a month feeding, and a multivitamin for twice a month feeding.

from the sounds of it, your bf wasnt doing it right either.

also- those centipede things, are probably mealworms/superworms.

those are treat bugs, not a daily feeder bug.
they need to eat crickets, dubia roaches, or silkworms as a regular feeder.
so im betting that had something to do with it as well, if those supers/mealies made up the most of his diet.

as for lighting- he should have a uvb bulb and a basking bulb. also. lights going off at midnight, not a good thing. lights should go off around 7-9 pm and come on at 7-9 am.
they need a 12 hour on/off cycle.


and can yu post pics of him?

im concerend abotu Metabolic bone disease, MBD. from the supplemention and lack of good food.

also, please try to find otu what hes been supplementing him with.

Thanks!


and i really want to reassure you, it doesnt sound like it was your fault.
 
When I get home from work at 6 I will post specifics about the supplements, lights and a picture of him. I just want him to be ok...hes such a colorful neat animal. His coloring still looks ok, he is still bright and multi green colored. Its just his behavior and not eating that has changed.

Thank you for all of the information! I will get back to you with specifics tonight. Hopefully he can get to the vet today as well :eek:
 
Thats great! we will be here.
and if you want to get my attention immediatly, send me a PM. it alerts me on my cell.

and a vet visit is agreat thing. As long as the vet knows what they are doing.

good luck and just keep responding!
 
acfi said:
Hi,

My boyfriend's panther chamleon PJ seems to be getting sick. I took care of PJ for 20 days when he was out of town. He drank several times a day (bottled water, mist), and ate a good amount of various worms and crickets that he usually does. I am very good at taking care of him, however my boyfriend did NOT tell me to sprinkle nutrients on his food once a week. PJ was completely fine until about the day my boyfriend got home from the trip, and now is very lathargic and not eating or drinking much. Can 3 weeks of skipped nutrients kill him?? If we take him to the vet could they do something? My boyfriend had his first chameleon Picasso for 12 years. PJ is only 2 years old. I'm very worried.
Any information would be of help!
Thanks!
Click to expand...

Seems unlikely to me that skipping supplements for three weeks would cause any harm. Though it does sound like your bf may have been under supplementing generally, depending on how he is gutloading the feeders. Is it true the chameleon is only being given "worms"?

Is it possible PJ is about to shed?

I suggest reading these blog entries:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
 
Here's some information I hope will help you with supplementing, etc.....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
ohh i hope those "worms" and "centipede thingies" aren't Wax worms and super worms, they are both pretty empty with nutrients, and wax worms are extremely fatty, get him some crickets and silk worms
 
Thanks for all the great info. I will have my bf look at everything when he gets home...he had his first chameleon for 12 years and takes very good care of them (his first died when we went on vacation and a friend took care of it for a week, which is another reason I'm panicking)

The supplements here are Rep-Cal Phosphorus Free Calcium w Vitamin D and Rep-Cal Herpative w/ Beta Carotene Multivitamins. I'm honestly not sure of the regimen he does... I attached some pics. The first is of PJ about a month ago, and the second is today
 

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ok well he looks good.
but the two supplements you mentioned, are to be used each twice a month on feedings.

he needsa plain calcium without d3 for every feeding.

if hes been getting the d3 on every feeding, then he more than likely has a d3 overdose. it can be fixed, by stopping its usage every day.
 
Ok thanks so much for the help and support! I will show my bf all the advice...I'll post an update!!
 
Here's a clip from my blog on supplements, specifically about vitamin D3:

From https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/olimpia/573-chameleon-physiology-supplements.html
Vitamin D3: Cholecalciferol, also nicknamed the “sunshine vitamin” is one that the body can synthesize in the skin when exposed to sunlight. It can also be consumed through diet, but in the case of reptiles, they count on basking to produce a significant amount of it. The purpose of vitamin D is to maintain normal, balanced blood levels of calcium and phosphorus in the body, and plays an important role in the absorption of calcium into the bones, helping them become stronger. It also plays an important part in maintaining immune system health.

There are risks associated with too much of this vitamin, which is why it is not recommended to supplement too heavily with this vitamin via diet. Too much of it will start affecting the nerves and muscles, and more severe toxicity will start to affect calcium levels; calcium will be too highly elevated in soft tissues, such as muscles and kidneys, and begin to actually calcify these tissues, while debilitating the bones.
Click to expand...

This is why we recommend that chameleons only get it twice a month, because they make most of it in their skin through the UVB light. So we supplement with it lightly just to cover our bases, but they do most of it by themselves. Luckily, 4 times a month or so isn't overkill either, so it shouldn't be a major emergency. But getting some phosphorous-free plain calcium for the rest of the week will be very beneficial to his overall health.

I actually recommend the all-in-one supplement, the Rapashy ICU, because it takes away all the guesswork. It's a pretty good supplement, and it's what I use exclusively for my males.

And your boyfriend kept a chameleon alive for 12 years? Holy cow, give that man a medal if that's true! I think the oldest one I've heard of so far lived to be 8 years old.
 
All the nutrient info is very helpful. Thank you!

He bought his last one it in 2000 and he died this past summer...so maybe 11. He was very old, but much easier to take care of then the current one. He drank and ate anytime he was fed and watered and never had any issues. He was kept in an outdoor cage with lights. It was sad when he died but the new guy is much more colorful. I hope he makes it! :/
 
sounds like the white and black worms are silkworms and the centipedes are probably supers.

is no one else as concerned with using wood for constructing their cages as i am?

ive heard of chams lasting 14 years but 5-7 seems much more common.

pressure treated wood, is a BIG no no. tannins in pines and cedars scare the buhjeus out of me but i dont recall ever reading anything specifically about toxicity and specific examples of symptoms and ailments that would be attributed by using these as construction materials.

its always been a better safe than sorry for me. plywood or particle board is processed, treated, and uses (probably) unsafe industrial adhesives.

but again i have no REAL knowledge on the specifics so some may be safer than i presume.

edit*

i dont understand why people seem to commonly fall back on it must be an issue with supplementation when a mystery ailment with a chameleon in a wooden cage pops up. especially considering it only being a matter of a couple weeks without his normal supplementation. if you started watering him differently than your BF and possibly allowing him to drink directly off the wood id be afraid of water soluble toxins being an element in his current state
 
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