Nursing Veiled Cham With MBD Back to Health

[goshirn]

Hello guys, I'm new here and I registered here so that I make this post, where I will document my attempt to save my friend's Veiled Chameleon.

So here's what happened, she bought the veiled cham online, from a random person, not even a reptile shop... The person happened to only be interested in getting rid of the cham, so he told her that the cham needed a little terrarium, normal lights during the day, heating and mealworms or crickets for food.

The cham is a she, and she's called Acorn.

So for the last 6 months the chameleon has lived in a small terrarium, with a normal fluorescent bulb over her, fed mostly mealworms, no calcium supplements, no vitamins. She hasn't eaten much over the last 6 months, she has been free fed, so no one really has much idea of how much she actually eats... She has barely grown.

I would like to disclose that I know things are not ideal, and that I will take advice from everyone as advice, not instructions, I'm able to do research and cross check everything and I will hold only myself accountable for my actions. We have no reptilian vet anywhere near us, so we are not substituting vet for your comments, and this post is about documenting things and publishing information so that others can use that information in whatever way they want. So comment freely every feedback is useful!

My friend trusted the seller, didn't do any research and it was only after I got to meet her and then started being interested on reptiles and doing research about them that I noticed that she didn't feed him calcium and he didn't have UVBs and then I kept doing research and found this post about MBD in this forum and then I looked for signs on her and...

She has developed MBD.

I think it's pretty serious, she doesn't eat at all, when she moves, which is rare she shakes like hell, she doesn't have much strength. My friend doesn't have time or the ability to "force feed" the chameleon, I tried it and I was able to do it and because I have more resources in terms of getting things online and stuff I asked her if she wanted me to nurse the cham back to health, she said yes and so now I'm taking care of the cham. Oh also, there's no reptile vet in the area and we couldn't afford it either... The cham was an impulse buy, it is the example of how not to get a reptile, and I know how wrong everything has been for this cham, but this post is about me documenting a possible recovery, about getting information about this posted somewhere because along the road we will find difficulties and we will learn stuff and this all might be useful for someone else. The chameleon is called Acorn.

So let's talk more about where Acorn lives and the heating and stuff.

This is her terrarium:

If the research I've done is correct this is too small for her, this is not something I can correct, so we will try and make due with what we have.

Yes that is a heating pad on the back of the terrarium and that's the heating. Because heat rises the terrarium actually has a range of temperatures, both from the front to the back (so from the front glass and towards the back where the heating pad is, and btw it's on the outer side of the terrarium) and from the bottom to the top, because heat rises, on the front part and middle the temperatures are about 20 to 25 degrees, near the back in the middle it's 30 degrees and get's to 35-40 on the top near the back where the plastic plant crossed the terrarium, something I added so she can go there if she wants some warmth and light. (Temperatures are in celsius)

As you can see here she has a fountain, it's meant to keep the terrarium with more humidity, she also drinks off of it.

Again, I would like to remember that I know things are not ideal, and that I will take advice from everyone as advice, not instructions, I'm able to do research and cross check everything and I will hold only myself accountable for my actions. So comment freely every feedback is useful!

So what did I do?

I brought Acorn home and was "force feeding" her 5 mealworms a day dusted with Calcium, I hold her carefully, rub a mealworm to the side of her mouth, when she opens her mouth and put the mealworm in, this has been so hard... She will take 5 to 10 minutes to open her mouth in the first times, but she is getting used to it and it's starting to be a less stressing even for her.

I brought the mealworms from my friend, I have had the cham for 3 days, I have tried to get crickets from the pet shop where she used to get them but they don't have any :/ So mealworms will have to do.

More details on the calcium, it's JBL MicroCalcium, pure calcium powder, no D3 and no phosphorous.

This was also provided by my friend. She gives it to her leopard gecko, she's had the gecko for 5 years and has taken care of it well, he's very healthy.

But she needs calcium with D3 so I got Zoo Med's ReptiCalcium with D3.

I also got Zoo Med's ReptiVite with D3.

The calcium does not have phosphorous, the vitamins do.

So now that I have calcium with D3 I'm going to give that to her on every feeding. I'm going to give her vitamins twice a week for now, you guys can comment if I should give only once or give her more or mix with the calcium, she's really weak and I think she needs them.

So I will be feeding 5 mealworms a day with the D3 calcium, until I get the crickets, then it will be mostly crickets, I'm hoping she can eat them off of a cup.

But of course! This would all be useless without proper lighting, and I bought ExoTerra's Repti Glo 5.0 and it arrived today and I just got it installed. It's a 38cm 14w, it's supposed to be good down to 30 cm from the lamp. I also have the other normal 6500k flurescent bulb on to have a better spectrum of lights, you guys can tell me if it's of any relevance to keep that one on or not.

So here we go, let the comments begin, just remember, this is all just about me documenting this, it's about reporting things so they might be useful to someone else, and it's about getting the little cham back to health. Positive vibes everyone, though I will take any and all criticisms well. But trolls will be ignored.

Go ahead say something, tell me what you think! Thank you for reading

 

[Gavinsons]

i think it would be a good idea to get her in a bigger screen cage, even if you have to scab something together for 10 bucks and get her a basking light and a good uvb light. and calcium, she needs calcium

 

[carol5208]

I have to leave for work so cannot comment like I would properly want to. Hopefully others will give you some good advice. In the mean time, I would get her out in the sun as much as possible. Here is a link for you to read up on MBD and what to do.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

 

[kinyonga]

One thing I want to mention before I get into the MBD...female veiled chameleons can lay eggs without having mated so she needs a suitable place in the cage to dig to show you when she needs to lay.

For the MBD...when a chameleon has MBD the calcium must be brought back into balance while keeping the other supplements in a normal balance at the same time...so its recommended that the chameleon be given a liquid (because liquids are said to be absorbed better) calcium such as calcium Sandoz or gluconate.

In addition to this you need to provide proper UVB, appropriate temperatures, other supplements and well-fed/gutloaded insects for it, etc.

Exposure to UVB allows the chameleon to produce D3 so it can use the calcium in its system. D3 produced from exposure to the UVB should not build up in the system as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it at will.

For a veiled female, the basking should be in the mid to low 80'sF. Appropriate temperatures will aid in digestion and thus nutrient absorption.

Insects such as crickets, locusts, roaches, superworms can be fed/gutloaded with a wide assortment of greens such as dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, etc.

Normally we recommend dusting the insects just before they are fed to the chameleon with a phos. free calcium powder at most feedings to help make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most feeder insects.

We also recommend dusting twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it. D3 from supplements will build up in the system and can lead to health issues.

We also recommend that you dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. Proformed sources don't build up in the system like prEformed do so this leaves it up to you to decide if/when the chameleon needs preformed vitamin A.

While the chameleon is being given the liquid calcium there should be no reason not to do what's normally recommended too IMHO.

It doesn't look like its a really bad case of MBD luckily. I've seem lots worse.
Hope this helps!

 

[goshirn]

One thing I want to mention before I get into the MBD...female veiled chameleons can lay eggs without having mated so she needs a suitable place in the cage to dig to show you when she needs to lay.

For the MBD...

[...]

While the chameleon is being given the liquid calcium there should be no reason not to do what's normally recommended too IMHO.

It doesn't look like its a really bad case of MBD luckily. I've seem lots worse.
Hope this helps!

Thanks for the response and all the very concentrated info, there's lots in there that takes a lot of research to know.

Because I already spent money on the UVB light, I can't buy liquid calcium now... So the calcium powders will have to do.

This is all about making the best out of a resource limited situation.

i think it would be a good idea to get her in a bigger screen cage, even if you have to scab something together for 10 bucks and get her a basking light and a good uvb light. and calcium, she needs calcium

I said in the post that I can't get her a new home, so that's that, there's no way to find anything remotely that cheap where I live. Also I just got her a 5% UVB bulb which is what is recommended for Veiled Chameleons, so I have that. I said what calcium I was feeding in the last 3 days and what I'm going to feed from now on.

She can't get a basking light for heat, that is done with the heating pad on the back of the terrarium and is not going to change.

I didn't buy a chameleon and now want to fix him, I'm trying to fix someone else's chameleon, I cannot spend money on all the needs of the chameleon, I have to make due with what I have and what little I can do, like giving her calcium and getting her the uvb light that I got.

I have to leave for work so cannot comment like I would properly want to. Hopefully others will give you some good advice. In the mean time, I would get her out in the sun as much as possible. Here is a link for you to read up on MBD and what to do.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

While I appreciate that, that post is linked on my post, it was on that post that I even got to know what it looked like and diagnose the cham. So I've read that post already, but thank you anyway

 

[KaijuVeiled]

You shouldn't have taken someone else's chameleon to nurse back to health. Especially if you didn't plan to spend money... I understand times are tough and money is tight but cmon. A basking bulb at petsmart, the cheap ones in the blue box are like $5. And as for a new cage, if you have some spare 2x4's and a roll of screen or old window screens, you have a new cage! Chameleons need cross breeze as well as a basking bulb. Heat pads heat the whole enclosure basking bulbs heat the area in which they shine on, hence the name "basking spot". Just try your best! And be a little more open minded! have a great day, and your little guy is in my prayers!

 

[goshirn]

You shouldn't have taken someone else's chameleon to nurse back to health. Especially if you didn't plan to spend money... I understand times are tough and money is tight but cmon. A basking bulb at petsmart, the cheap ones in the blue box are like $5. And as for a new cage, if you have some spare 2x4's and a roll of screen or old window screens, you have a new cage! Chameleons need cross breeze as well as a basking bulb. Heat pads heat the whole enclosure basking bulbs heat the area in which they shine on, hence the name "basking spot". Just try your best! And be a little more open minded! have a great day, and your little guy is in my prayers!

That's just it, I don't have petsmart where I live, the only pet shop that even has crickets doesn't even have crickets at this time. And I don't have 2 by 4 roll of screen and that kind of stuff is expensive where I live because wages here are super low.

I took the cham because he hadn't eaten anything in 3 weeks, before that just a week of crickets and another 2 or 3 weeks of eating nothing, the owner can't force feed him, I was able to do it, so I'm trying to help, at least he eats now, which also means he gets calcium and I got him the uvb bulb.

No the heat pads don't heat the whole thing if they are mounted vertically on the back of the terrarium. It creates a gradience of temperatures that at least allow the cham to digest the food.

I'm not cheaping out on this, I'm using all the money that I can to save her, but I can't spend more or I won't have money to eat...

 

[Gavinsons]

where are you located? maybe someone here is close and might know of somewhere to get feeders.

 

[goshirn]

where are you located? maybe someone here is close and might know of somewhere to get feeders.

Coimra, Portugal

 

[carol5208]

Oops sorry about that! I did not click on the link!

 

[kinyonga]

IMHO the cage size is fine for the chameleon for now.

For a basking bulb you can use a regular household incandescent light bulb...you don't need to spend money to buy something fancy.

As for the liquid calcium...don't know if they sell it in pharmacies in Portugal or not...or the price. If you can't get it or afford it then the powder will have to do for now. Just dust the insects well and feed them with a high calcium diet if you can. What insects are you using? Wild caught ones or those from a store?

As for taking it and trying to nurse it back to health...that's a much better idea than leaving it to die. Good luck!

 

[Garou]

Hello goshirn,

I have read through your post. I too have a Cham that is unwell. All the reading I have done brought me here, and I discovered she has MDB. Today is the first day she looked different and acted different. So I am taking the advice here, and elsewhere and seeing what I already do and what I need to now do to help her get well.

I bring all this up, because you pointed out you would take the advice and do with it as you could, and to learn. I admire that. That is wise of you. And you are trying your damnedest to nurse this innocent animal back to health for your friend. Admirable of you. I have a suggestion for you, its one of those easy to do suggestions. When you feed the cham, and it is day time, take the cham outside. There is sun, with vitamin D, and the cham will receive some assistance and needed vitamins. It is free, easy and can be done while you are doing something with the chameleon.

Another suggestion is a little more time consuming or rather personally consuming for you. My husband and I have found that sometimes people will help you when you ask, pretty simple, something we all know, something we also forget! The suggestion: if anyone near you or that you run into has say extra PVC pipe, or lengths of wood or even crates or pallets, see if they would be willing to give you some. Or if not free for a small barter... you help them for an hour, then they help you. The screen for the sides could be daunting, but if you got the new area of the terrarium atop the old one, even giving the Cham an extra foot, well that would be excellent no? You could use Mosquito netting for the time being. And when you are able to, add on actual window mesh/screen.

As I wrote that suggestion I had an idea! Now it may be silly, and it may not quite work as it is meant to, but till parts can be gathered.. Try setting the current terrarium up on end. So it is taller, not wider. And don't forget to set her near to a window for the vitamins and UVB... Super free suggestion!

I hope your friends Cham gets better soon. You are one amazing friend. If only every friend were as giving as you.


Sincerely,
Nichole/Garou

 

[goshirn]

Hello goshirn,

I have read through your post. I too have a Cham that is unwell. All the reading I have done brought me here, and I discovered she has MDB. Today is the first day she looked different and acted different. So I am taking the advice here, and elsewhere and seeing what I already do and what I need to now do to help her get well.

[...]

I hope your friends Cham gets better soon. You are one amazing friend. If only every friend were as giving as you.


Sincerely,
Nichole/Garou

You were super nice, thank you for that

As for asking people I know, I only have a couple friends, we're all pretty young so we don't have those kinds of supplies and neither do their parents. The chameleon might get a new cage but only if her owner gets it.

On going out in the sun, it's been cloudy here but when I can see some intense sun I go out with the cham so she and even me, because I spend all day inside, to get some vitamin D

Thank you for replying.