Newbie Nervous Nelly ... or something I should adress

[Lokanga]

First off a quick hello.

I have been lurking around for many months and finally decided to become a member (not to hip on posting on forums in general).

But very much appreciated all the excellent info I have found to-date and the many helpful threads throughout.

I have had a Veiled Chameleon quite a few years back which grew up to be a big boy and was ultimately sold to a reputable local reptile store due to me having to move.

We have also successfully kept and bred Crested Gecko's for many years so I am perhaps not so new to reptiles overall.

After going through many a classified on this forum, I did manage to get a hold of a beautiful baby Ambanja just this Friday.

I just thought I run this past the knowledgeable crowd and settle down my nerves ... perhaps I am just a nervous nelly.

Here is all the info for a review and hope to hear some feedback on possible thoughts.

Thanks much

Chameleon Info:
• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon
o Panther Chameleon
o Ambanja
o Male – 4 months (born first week of January 2014)
o Purchased from a sponsor of this forum
• How long has it been in your care?
o Since Friday 05/09 = 4 days
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
o Only once to get him carefully out of the shipping container (plastic Deli – Cup)
o Wiped hands with reptisafe on a paper towel then left to air dry before touching him
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham?
o Friday afternoon (12:30 pm) after arriving at 10:00 am
 7 small (less than 1/2”) crickets
 All were gone next morning
 Did not see him actually eat or hydrate – tried to stay away from the cage and let him settle in
o Saturday morning:
 10:00 am 7 small (1/2”) crickets
 Saw him physically eat 4 and saw him drink droplets from leaves that were deposited there via mister
 Very actively hunting around and moved around the cage all day.
o Sunday morning:
 10:00 am 7 small (1/2”) crickets
 Saw him physically eat 3, saw him drink a few droplets from leaves that were deposited there via mister
 Changed colors to quite vibrant Greens/with Darker bands - tail was “flicking” before he struck out with tongue
 Found a poop on bottom of the cage which is dark a slightly moist with white urea about ½” long
o Monday morning:
 10:00 am 5-7 small (less than 1/2”) crickets
 Did not seem interested at all at feeding time
 Caught him eat one after 2 hrs
 Saw him drink two droplets from leaves --not too enthusiastically
 Seems to be hunting now, eye balling remaining crickets (3:30 pm)
 Climbed the dripper, eyeballed droplets but did not drink (4:00 pm)
• What amount?
o See above on amount(s)
• What is the schedule?
o So far only in the morning as I didn’t see him eat all of them
 I don’t want crickets roaming around too long in the cage
 Any remaining crickets before bedtime I try to catch and remove
• How are you gut-loading your feeders?
o Carrots, greens, sliver of bell pepper, potato, Repashy super load, Fluckers cricket quenchers and Fluckers cricket diet.
o Did order some Dino Fuel today, getting some x-small Phoenix worms in the mail by 5:00 pm today
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
o ReptiCalcium without D3 – every day dusted lightly
o Reptivite reptile vitamins with D3 – plan to use by Friday as I do not know the last time he had vitamins/wD3
 After Friday will start the regiment
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use?
o Exo Terra Monsoon 400 - 4 mist heads
 Distilled water w/ a charcoal ? filter head on the pick up fitting
 Storage container has a fish tank heater warms up water – temp is set @ 78F water at nozzle is around 68F
 Timer starts up @ 7:30 am mists 60 sec
 10:30 am mist 60 secs
 1:30 pm mist 60 secs
 4:30 pm mist 60 secs
o A little dripper - drips at a very slow rate all day long
 Turned on by hand @ 8:00 am
 Turned off @ 6:00 pm
o ZooMed fogger at lowest possible setting
 Fog moves up ¾ way up cage (20" out of 24" height)
 3 times a day – schedule below
• How often and how long to you mist?
o Every 3 hours @ 60 seconds – schedule is on timer, starts @ 7:30 am after the lights come on as to not startle the little guy
o fogger/Mister is on starting at 7:30 – 15 min, 12:00 30 min, 3:00 pm 15 min
• Do you see your chameleon drinking?
o Yes twice on successive days – but not enthusiastically
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings.
o dark brown almost black w a White tip about half inch long – only found one so far
• Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
o I do not know
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
o NA only had him for four days

Cage Info:
• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
o Glass ExoTerra – 18” Wide by 18” Deep by 24” High – reason for using ExoTerra - keep moisture within reasonable levels as Colorado is a very dry climate
o Top is full vented screen plus the vented slit on the bottom of the front glass
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
o Exoterra Compact Hood with 2 - 24 watts 5.0 Exoterra bulbs – brand new installed the day before the chameleon arrived
o 12 hours on 12 hours off start @ 7:00 am off by 7:00 pm
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
o 80F – 84F Max at basking area 2 inches from top of screen – using a Black ceramic emitter
o 60F – 68F at 3/4 down opposite side of the enclosure
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels?
o Basking area fluctuates from 45 back to 20 after misting
o Opposite side of tank fluctuates from 65 back to 45 after misting
• How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
o As described above, Exoterra Monsoon + Humidifier + dripper Humidity is measured with ExoTerra (2 of them) digital thermometer/hygrometer combo’s
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
o No - currently all fake, planning in later stages to get live, want to get past the young stage and prevent any possibility of it ingesting any earth or contaminations
o Fake vines, a small piece of grape vine to provide the “center” climbing colum
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas?
o Home office against the wall (cornered)
o No fans, No Air vents
o Very low traffic area, I work as an IT specialist and program – no movement besides me typing or getting up for a cup of coffee – lunch
o Cats are kept away from this room
• At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
o Top of cage is at 5 feet
• Location - Where are you geographically located?
o Parker Colorado - 6000 feet – climate is quite arid during summer

• Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
o Cham seems to doze under the 5.0 Reptisun. Get’s quite Black when he is there (about an hour or so) – will close eye(s) the one facing the bulb.
o From all the readings ,I was under the impression you should see no eye closure (perhaps giving the impression of dozing)
o Also understand that the very Black coloration would be stress / unhappiness
o He does seem to change back to a general Green/some light Blue (still developing his full color) once he moves on his own away from the UV Bulb
o On all days he retreats to the very back off the cage around 4:30 pm (3/4 down) before lights go out, but remains alert / eyes open.
 He is pretty well sleeping by 5:30 pm though, tail is curled into a perfect spiral and he is firmly gripping the branch he has picked out
• Questions:
o Am I just too overbearing and on top of the cage keeping a “too watch full eye out” ?
 I can see the cage from my chair from which I work, so I see “all movement”, perhaps I need to find a diff work place 
o Is he just stressed out and finding his way around the cage?
o Do I need to move the highest leaves/branches further away from the ReptiGlo ?
o Is the Repti Glo a bit too much and should I only use 1 bulb instead or perhaps switch to 12 Watt instead of 2-24 watts?
o Am I too worried not seeing him eat all crickets ? Can’t truly determine if he gets enough hydration but eye turrets are looking fine.

Camping out right under the 5.0 bulb:

Another angle:

3/4 way down the cage average temp and humidity:

2 inches from top of cage average temp and humidity:[/U][/B]

Current gutload supplies:

New Reptiglow bulbs:

Light hood and basking spot set up and little dripper:

The "one and only poop" found so far:

 

[juju]

in my opinion and i could be wrong but everthing seems fine the close his eyes thing is a issue but from everything u have writen down i cant see what could be causeing his discoloring/ stress only thing i can think of is that fact that it could be because he can see u, you and him have to get used to each other and for him your a huge predator that wants to eat his everything lol after he settles in a little more and good way to do some "bonding" or to get him to not freak out so bad when he sees u is cup feeding but like i said make sure before u do this he has enough time to hang out in his cage and get used to things. cup feeding a a good way to get things moving along the way i do about things is i have a base from a deli cup and i will put some roaches in there and let my dude eat them out of there but this was like a year ago my little man has grown up in to a stud that tries to eat me everytime i go in his cage. (veiled chameleon) so bonding for us is him not eating me. xDD anyway i hope my info helped like i said i could be wrong but thats the only thing that really stands out to me.

 

[jamjam]

most things seem to be in check, you are worried a bit too much for nothing mind you, you have only had him for 4 days. they have to get used to their surrounds some people take a very long time to witness their cham eating or drinking anything and the fact you have seen him eat something is a good sign right now.

things worth mentioning:
he will need something bigger at some point. screen is optimal

basking area seems really close to the top which can cause risk for burning. sort of interested why you didnt opt out for a basking bulb over heat emitter?

The linear bulbs would have been more ideal choice for UV

Lastly black under the basking lamp is normal, doesnt have to mean he is stressed or unhappy. they go black so absorb in as much as possible under it and often times will flatten themselves out a bit

 

[juju]

thought of something else u have to becareful of glass enclosure like those with the way u are set up it can be a breeding ground for bacteria now that being said some keepers have chams in glass enclosures and are just fine and some use mesh as i do most of the time it just comes down to personal options.

 

[juju]

also foggers arnt something u wanna have around for a panther those are something that is good for a jackson with panthers yet again u are at risk for having respiratory infections cause it will get so wet in a glass enclosure that moist air has no where that it can really go and a common thing that can happen is that air will get stagnate and start to breed bad things.

 

[jamjam]

as JUJU mentioned and myself not that glass CANNOT be used. you have your reasoning why you used glass. using a small fan for airflow and stop stagnant air should help. As i mentioned as he gets bigger you would want something 24x24x48". To help with the dryness of where you live can attach something like shower curtains to the sides or even something like acrylic to several sides of a screen cage. personal preference

 

[modernjamie]

Believe it or not, when I got my first chameleon, he would often close his eyes as well and I was doing everything right as recommended. As you mentioned, he would close the eye facing the UVB lighting. I was worried that he might be "sleeping" during the day and it's a no no for chameleons as you know. But after a few days, it went away and now he never closes his eyes during the day. I vaguely remember reading that they close their eyes when they are stressed. I would watch him closely for a few days and try to make an environment that he does not get stressed. As the members mentioned above, screen cage would be more suitable for chameleons

In addition, I think that the fake plants look like it's hard for them to retain water on the leaves for your chameleon to drink. I think they just absorb water right away and water drops would fall off before your chameleon gets a chance to drink. I recommend getting a live plant (I have ficus trees for my both chameleons). it's better to retain humidity. Once you get the screen cage for him, I would increase time for misting sessions as well. I think that 60 seconds is a little too short for forming a good amount of water drops.

 

[Lokanga]

Thanks for the very fast replies and letting me settle down a bit.

JuJu:

Your observations make sense as he can indeed see me sitting in front of the computer, especially when he needs to get himself under the UVB lights.

So perhaps I am stressing him out more than I stress myself out.

I'll see if I can block some of the view from that side with another vine hanging from a suction cup on the front glass rather than having the whole door unobstructed and viewable into the cage.

Yes understood on the glass vs. mesh cage. I know I am in for much more cleaning and ensuring no bacteria growth is permitted. Also the comment on the fogger is well received and makes perfect sense.

I'll shut it down for tomorrow's session and see how my humidity fairs over the next few days.

JamJam:
Thanks for your comments and letting me know I am a bit "too" worried...
I already have another ExoTerra XL Cage 36W/18D/48H - ready for growth and when the time comes. It has a full length linear bulb set up (2 tubes capable).

I did read with much interest the many good discussions on the http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/info.html offerings and might have to order once he is big enough and forego on the base ExoTerra lighting I saved from an older cage setup.

I will do more research and I am not opposed to switching to an all screen cage at all. Just continue to be concerned about humidity and eventually when winter comes along keeping temps in check, the house tends to drop towards the low 50's mid winter in the home office location.

Perhaps the temp closing off sides with Plexi glass during low humidity days is not too much work, just another add on expense.

I thought about possible using a small laptop computer fan to move stagnant air but then thought the better of it and not cause a draft.

I could easily open the door of the cage every hour or less frequent if that would be worth pursuing just in case?

I'll also move the current compact lighting housing a bit higher off the cage.

Glad to know it is normal to get dark, I have seen him "flatten out" which caused me a bit of consternation as well ...but glad to know it's ok.

I have seen him flip sides too.

there was no particular reason behind the ceramic heater - just had it handy...I can switch out to a normal daylight basking light bulb. I did forget to mention it is on a factory included dimmer cord so I can set the "intensity"

 

[Lokanga]

Modernjamie:

Much appreciate the assist and additional comments....

Glad to hear there was some "eye closure" here and there and I am not the only one out there.....

I have been considering going to live plants right away but took the easy way out....

Will stop by the local nursery and see if I can find a suitable Ficus tree.....and switch out in the very near future.

Will increase the misting sessions to 90 seconds and see how it fairs.

Also read the https://www.chameleonforums.com/diy-rain-attachment-128607/ with much interest.

I think the four mist heads might freak him out a bit, so I'll have a go at making a more "gentle" rain drop from the top with this excellent DYI this weekend.

 

[Trace]

It may just be the angle of the photos and the UV lighting playing a part but are you sure you have a male? The colours are usually, but not always, more developed at that age. Additionally the hemipenal bulge should be fairly prominent.

I know that doesn't answer your concerns but if that is the case then you need to be prepared down the road for egg laying. If you could post a photo of your chameleon from the side with the tail straight out, we could confirm the gender either way.

 

[bugboy]

I'd like to offer my two cents if that's ok.

First of all, I will agree that you are probably worrying for nothing haha, I can't find anything wrong with how you are doing things.

I will agree about the space between the top of the screen and the highest point he can climb to. In my smaller cages I've always kept at least 5" space between the top and the highest vine/branch, but if the hottest temp TRULY is 80-84F, you probably don't need to worry. Though even in my largest enclosures, the highest point is about 8-10" from the top, and at this point the temp at the basking spot is about 90F (he is an adult) and he can thermoregulate as needed.

The eye closing/early to bed thing is probably him adjusting to a different time zone; I don't know where he came from but if it's 2 hours ahead of your time zone it's very likely he will need a few days to adjust. They seem to have an internal clock; my animals are settling down about a half hour or so before the lights actually go off.

If you are staring at him all of the time, he's probably not gonna eat his food haha! Give him his privacy, he will eat when he feels comfortable.

Glass is not supposed to be ideal, however Exo-Terra enclosures are the exception, as they create the necessary airflow to eliminate bacterial growth. There is no reason you couldn't keep him in one his entire life, aside from the fact that they are EXPENSIVE haha, and I don't think they make a 2x2x4 model. These enclosures also allow drops of water to stick around longer than a screen cage, so it may not be necessary to increase the amount of time the misting system goes off, it would just make more water for you to clean up.

Chameleons change color for many reasons, be it absorbing heat, attracting others, furious anger haha, etc. Again, if you're staring at him constantly, I wouldn't be surprised that he's always brown. It's also possible he's soaking up some heat to help move himself around the enclosure. You won't know until you leave him alone for a bit, and give him more than four days to get used to things.

For the humidity, a live plant would definitely help, I suggest a pothos as they are virtually indestructable. I seem to kill plants by looking at them haha, but pothos has worked well for me, and also gives some vines for my animals to climb on and even up to higher levels.

You seem to be doing everything right, poop looks perfect, suitable enclosure, don't worry so much! Keep us updated on how he's doing.

 

[Lokanga]

Trace,

The breeder guaranteed this to be a male, marked as a male and sold as a male, when I took this pics he was quite toned down for sure.

I have seen him brighten up with the Blue colors of the Sire and much more defined bars and the White lateral line coming through.

Not seen any of the more pinkish? tones more prominent on the females. I am by no means an expert though

Here are some more pics when he was just put in his cage....taken with a proper camera rather than an iPhone wash out

I'll see if I can some better angles.

Here is the Sire:

 

[modernjamie]

Trace,

The breeder guaranteed this to be a male, marked as a male and sold as a male, when I took this pics he was quite toned down for sure.

I have seen him brighten up with the Blue colors of the Sire and much more defined bars and the White lateral line coming through.

Not seen any of the more pinkish? tones more prominent on the females. I am by no means an expert though

Here are some more pics when he was just put in his cage....taken with a proper camera rather than an iPhone wash out

I'll see if I can some better angles.

Here is the Sire:

Aww I got my first male from the same breeder Cyclone is a handsome Ambanja. My male's sire is a different Ambanja though. Anyway, he looks like a boy for sure

 

[Lokanga]

BugBoy,

very much appreciate you taking the time and providing additional comments and observations for sure, I am soaking it all in

Glad you are not seeing glaring errors and I am indeed on the right path !

The temp/humidity pickup is sitting right under the plastic cage lip to ensure the plastic and the screen do not go beyond the 85F mark right under the basking ceramic heater.

But better safe than be sorry and not leaving anything to chance I moved the highest part of accessible vines a bit lower by 2 inches last night when he was sleeping.

Also placed two more vines and blocked part of the front viewable glass so there is no direct line to my "permanent perch" as well

Seems there is quite a bit of personal preferences on screened vs. Glass.

Just glad to know the ExoTerra's have the cross vents and do circulate the air (albeit open screen "performance' will never be attained).

As I have been typing replies, he woke up, got a good (longer) misting, brightened up, looks alert and saw him hunt and catch/eat two crickets !

Will be posting along as we make progress...

Thanks again for all the wonderful and helpful quick replies...

Time to focus on work !

 

[Lokanga]

ModernJamie;

Thanks for the kind comments, just loved the sire and couldn't stop from getting a baby (right now).

Glad to hear you purchased from same breeder (Josh) Pantherchameleons.com seems to have some awesome selection and lineages!.

 

[Lokanga]

A quick update of today's proceedings

A much better day for (me for sure lol) and him.

Blocking off direct view from his perch to mine looks like it did the trick.

He was roaming around much more, actively hunted and ate when fed in the morning 5 small crickets....

Saw him drink from the little dripper set up 3 times today, looks like he figured out where to locate and uses the perch branch I created for him to reach the dripper.

He just ate 4 more little crickets and nicely basked around the UV lights....

I am one happy Cham owner

Just wanted to let you all know whom responded your kind assistance and excellent suggestions sure helped (me) and him out

 

[bugboy]

Gorgeous sire, your boy is gonna look pretty sweeeet haha.

Glad he is starting to feel more comfortable, chams definitely seem to appreciate the seclusion, especially when they are small (and "vulnerable"; remember that as far as they know we are giant hungry animals that would make a quick meal of them haha). You'll notice they always have one eye on you, even if you're across the room 10 feet away. When my panther was little he absolutely hated everything about me, and would dart at the sight of my prescence. I will admit that I never had a problem with him eating in front of me, as long as I wasn't staring him down. Now he's a little more accepting, and will hand feed from my fingers with no issues; he isn't fond of being touched (I never expected more haha), so I leave him alone.

The whole glass vs. screen debate is more of a case of old school vs. new school vs. old school yadda yadda yadda haha. I like to think of the Exo-Terra enclosures as a screen cage, where you get the desired airflow, combined with the ability to regulate temperature and humidity to a finer point. When I think of a glass enclosure, I think of a fish tank, and while this may work to a point, the air gets a little stagnant and gross haha. I use screen, for a few reasons; my chams get along fine, even in the drier months, I'm able to mist heavily, and the difference in price compared to a vented glass enclosure of the same size is drastic. It all really boils down to what works for you and your cham.

I think I can see a bit of a bulge, and the color looks right for a male, but I've been proven wrong before. If he is indeed a male, he's not a very well endowed one haha.
Looks like his father shares the same trait though (unless the breeder's hand is blocking his package), he must have passed his genes to his son, the poor kid haha.

Again, glad to hear he is settling in, and you can stop holding your breath haha. I'm looking forward to seeing his color change as he ages.