New Cham Keeper with questions

[TyggyToo]

I have had a 5 mo old veiled cham, F, for about a month. She seems to be pretty well adjusted. She is an accurate and avid hunter, doesn't particularly like my presence in her life, and gets around her enclosure well enough. She does, however, occasionally worry me.

One morning I found her asleep on the floor of her cage. As soon as she woke she was off and scrambling and I really didn't think much of it. I've gone back and forth between leaving the heat light on 24/7, and shutting it off at night (she gets 12/12 of UVB, and plant light too). Much of the time she sleeps low in the enclosure.

Sometimes she grabs her own foreleg with a hindleg, and hangs there. This is my biggest concern. It seems to be when she panics, and I don't know if I should get in there and rescue her, and pry her little fused toes off her arm, or just let her dangle/fall/hang until she figures it out.

I'm also getting hugely mixed advice on feeding. One person says feed her as much as she'll eat; my excellent store frowned on that, and said stick to 10-12 a day (mediums) [well, how will I know when to go to 12-14, or up the size of the cricket?] and that a fat chameleon is not a healthy one. I feed her 4 or 5 two or three times a day, mist her enclosure twice a day and sometimes run a half pint of dripping water.

My last question or discussion point is plant material. She eats some of her philodendron every night, it seems. I'm not seeing Philodendron on the food list. Will she take wet kale from a bowl instead? I hung a leaf once and she avoided it for 24 hours when I had to remove it.

Thanks for input and support, I've always wanted a chameleon!
18X18X30 mesh enclosure with ficus, motherinlaw tongue, two philodrendron, and another arrow-leafed plant of unknown vintage, three vines, and cork/bark base.

Submitted for your approval,
T2

 

[pbveiled]

There should be no lights on at night. If temps get too low (under 60) then you can use a ceramic heat emitter that does not emit any light. There should also be nothing on the bottom of the cage.

Are you using any supplements? The crickets should be dusted with calcium w/o d3 at every feeding, calcium with d3 twice a month, and a multi vitamin twice a month.

Aren't philodendrons poisonous? I would remove the plant that you don't know what it is. You should only use plants that are known to be safe for cham's as they may eat the leaves which could cause health risks if it is not a safe plant.

Please complete the below information and post a pic of your cham and setup if possible.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. This is a great place to learn about chameleons. Please post some larger pictures of your girl and get some good ones of her arms and legs. It could be MBD. I keep veileds and they are such a pleasure to work with. I'm attaching a couple my blogs for you below. The first one will give you info on what you will need to keep this little girl healthy, links with pictures of what you need and where you can buy each item. Allot of these items you will not be able to find at a pet store. Since you have a female I'm also giving you my egg laying/laying bin blog, too. Jann
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/345-egg-laying-laying-bin.html#comment824

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Sometimes she grabs her own foreleg with a hindleg, and hangs there"...this can be a sign of MBD but there should be other indications of it too. Please post a couple more pictures.

Regarding feeding...when a female veiled is young you can feed her as much as she will eat in a couple of minutes once or twice a day. As she grows you can cut the feedings down to once a day. By the time she reaches sexual maturity (she should get mustardy/yellowish splotches on her body then) you might want to cut her back to 10-12 every other day because controlling their diet seems to keep the clutch size down or stop reproduction all together which seems to help them live longer. (Veileds can produce eggs even when not mated and should have a suitable container of washed playsand in the cage at all times once they have reached sexual maturity if you don't want to risk missing the often subtle signs that they need to lay eggs.) Overfeeding them constantly can lead to reproductive issues, constipation and even prolapses and MBD.

Regarding plants...since veileds do munch on plant material, its important that any plants in their cages be non-toxic and well-washed (both sides of the leaves). Some of the ones you are using I'm not sure about.

You can feed them dandelion greens, kale, collards, endive, escarole, carrot and sweet potato slivers, stips of red pepper and zucchini and squash, thin wedges of apple, pear, melon and berries. Don't just use one or two things from the list though...mix it up.

I don't use any substrate on the cage floor because many of them can lead to impaction.

Here's some information I hope will help you with things like supplements, gutloading, etc....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.

 

[TyggyToo]

Whew! thanks for all the info, folks. This will take some sorting through.

Food:
The crickets are on Bug Burger, Flukers something or other, supplemented with bits of this and that; water gel with Ca supplement, cat food, carrots, other veggies and fruits.

I dust them with Repashy hi Cal, usually. I'd say 1/3 of the crickets sent to their doom are not dusted.

kinyonga, I've worked for exotic animal vets and have a bit of a handle on MBD. That was the most cogent explanation of the Ca, D3, UVB interaction I've come across. You think she'll actually take veggies from a bowl?

Thanks so much jannb! That's a lot of info to look through, and I'll print it out for reference. She's in good health, I think. Her grips are solid, her jaw and casque are symmetrical, and though she seems as supple as a cat, her back looks straight. The store where I got her is a herp specialty, though not a cham specialty. It is meticulously clean, and the focus seems to be squarely on the animals. This doesn't mean to say they didn't give me inappropriate plants. I'll check out what I can. Plant toxicity lists are usually sketchy, and always err toward safety.

pbveiled, easy there! you come across in that message as very abrupt and confrontational, though I'm sure that wasn't your intention. Her droppings are pretty average, and I'll have a fecal exam done when my vet friend is here. Right now I'm setting a 'schedule' of sorts which means about 12/12 of light. Her highest bask spot gets to about 90F, she hangs out around 82 much of the day, and the bottom during the night is above 65.

The pic is quite large on my computer, but small here. Hmmm. I guess I need to upload it somewhere else.

Let me try something else....anyway, thanks! I appreciate all the input

 

[kinyonga]

I've had them take veggies from a bowl but you can also impale pieces of greens, etc. on a twig that comes off a branch in the cage and they will take them from there too.