Need Advice on Enclosure/Foliage

[tribes]

I have, as of two weeks ago, begun researching veiled chameleons and their care, either from local pet stores or herpetology forums. I am pretty sure I understand the basics to what a veiled chameleon needs in regards to humidity/temperature/light levels/and nutrition and the veiled chameleon I am looking to purchase is still a juvenile at about 3 inches with tail curled.

My first question is about my current tank. Two weeks ago I fully cleaned a ~20gal (probably about 17.5gal) half-bow tank about the time I began looking into veileds. The tank itself is over 17 inches tall in height, around 13 inches wide, and somewhere around 10 inches deep. It should be plenty tall/wide/deep in terms of the space a single veiled chameleon requires. Understanding that veileds are pretty hardy and can dwell in low-moderate humidity I knew my biggest problem with a tank like this would be ventilation as it is glass. The open mouth of the tank itself is quite massive and with the right screen that doesn't have too dense of a mesh I believe humidity/air flow could be maintained rather well with the use of 1 or more computer fans while also allowing correct basking temperatures.

I just really want to make sure that my setup will be okay in regards to the enclosure for a single veiled, baby-juvenile in age. From all logical and realistic points the tank should be low in humidity and have rather good airflow with air being sucked out by fans and fresh air being pumped in with an aquarium air pump. Misting whatever foliage is in the enclosure twice a day in order to give water to my future cham shouldn't lead to that much humidity with all the ventilation, either but I could be being optimistic. At this point I think I might be being a bit paranoid as the tank seems it could be almost perfect with the right ventilation/cleaning schedules and humidity monitoring. I could definitely use some reassurance before attempting to keep a chameleon in there, ie: personal experience/other ideas for keeping humidity down and air flow up with a glass tank.

My second question is primarily about foliage. I really want to go with umbrella plants but I'm having a very hard time finding them at reasonable prices around places like home depot/lowes. In hopes to save cash I started looking into certain species of dracaena like this one at petsmart: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3953774 I was pretty happy when I saw that this site here http://www.flchams.com/safe_plant_list.asp advised that all species of dracaena were safe for chameleons.

I was a little perturbed however when I searched on here for a second opinion and found mixed thoughts on the dracaena or "lucky bamboo" I linked from petsmart. The only place I've found that this dracaena is not safe with chameleons on the internet so far is on here and its just a few posts that don't really give any evidence to its toxicity and could be mistaking the plants toxicity towards mammals for toxicity towards reptiles.

I've even found a couple of posts on this forum where people have said they have kept lucky bamboo with chams and seen them take bites out of it and there were no noticable side effects to the animal. I don't mean to sound arrogant but it seems like lucky bamboo might be perfectly safe with reptiles, just not mammals and is just being misunderstood because of the mammalian toxicity. So, to those of you who keep this plant with your chams, can I rely on furnishing my enclosure with it? If this plant truly is toxic to reptiles, is there a cheaper plant I can look for to fill my enclosure? Also, I am planning on using grape vines to tie between plants for some nice basking spots, do the vines need to be lightly sanded and how should I disinfect them, would heavily diluted bleach be okay?

 

[Sticktongue]

In my opinion, the tank itself sounds to small even for a small juvi. I'd suggest going bigger than that.
Second, How do you plan on draining all the water out of the tank? All of our screen cages or terrariums have holes in the bottom of the enclosure to allow drainage. Their is a lot of water that gets used in a single day.

About the foliage. I use ficus trees at the moment. I have 3 of them and have not had any complaints. I also put a pothos down in the bottom and drape the vines up into the tree or around vines. You can also hang it from the top (with an enclosure that you open from the top) You'll run out of room very quick when you put a plant in that small of the tank. I'd suggest getting something like this http://diycages.com/15201/15901.html for a juvi veiled. that way, you can use fishing line, or whatever you choose to attach vines to the sides of the enclosure and really have more fun creating a jungle for him/her while giving it the proper room for its size.

Some people will bleach their grape vines, or bake them in the oven. While other people just take em from outside and put them right into the cage without worrying. So its up to you if you do or not, obviously

Hope this helped!

Carson

 

[carol5208]

Get a screen cage or terrarium and do yourself a favor. 17 inches is not tall enough in my opinion. The over all tank is too small and does not provide enough room, and then there is the drainage problem. Veild chameleons are tree dwellers and do not live on the ground. A tank that small will not provide enough heighth for you to secure branches and vines. Get a screen cage and you won't have to worry about using fans(which I would not use in the first place) to regulate air. You keep mentioning "low" humidity. What humidity range to you think is correct for a veild? Honestly I would not waste any time or money in a tank. Just my honest opinion.

 

[tribes]

I'm actually rather surprised by you guys saying the tank is too small. Juveniles up to three and a half months are commonly kept in tanks around 10 gallons according to multiple sources. Even if you type in "how tall of an enclosure does a veiled chameleon need?" into google the first five searches include evidence that juveniles are commonly kept in much smaller enclosures than a 20 gallon tank.

As for drainage, I have a hydropad that is preferorated and airated with an air pump. You can have it soaking in the sink for an hour and just sitting it on a counter at room temperature it will dry within 5 minutes. Adding the amount of ventilation I did, the humidity levels have been monitored at 38-50%. 38% humidity 4 hours after a heavy misting inside the tank and 50% humidity right after misting. Through out the day I have monitored the average humidity to be around 46%. According to multiple sources veiled chameleons enjoy anywhere between 30-60% humidity. In other words, low-moderate humidity like I said.

And the question I really wanted answered is in regard to the dracaena or lucky bamboo. My only questions in regards to my tank were with ventilation and I really just wanted responses from people with actual experience in glass terrariums. I have monitored the enclosure in every condition it will be in, in regards to water content/temperature and the humidity levels are perfect. I'm glad I went ahead and did this myself to prove the enclosure would be ideal in regards to humidity instead of waiting for you guys to just tell me it wouldn't be without even a picture of the setup.

And really, even if I didn't have a hydropad for my tank, these chameleons only require heavy misting of their plants twice a day according to the local herp center/two of the cham care blogs I read. Water doesn't even collect on the bottom of the tank during mistings and the plants will be in forthstand pots that allow air passage that are cleaned out and replaced every other week. In other words, not at any time, despite maybe a flood, is there ever standing water in the tank or even humidity over 65%. I pretty much answered my first question just by monitoring the humidity levels and making sure it was okay myself. With the airflow/hydropad I can literally not find moisture in the tank period. Also, with the hydropad its extremely easy to clean the enclosure. If there ever were standing water or even enough moisture to create mold, you would see it as the hydropad would be moist at the touch immediately. But even just pulling up a corner of the hydropad under a potted plant and checking for moisture every day doesn't seem like that big of a hassle to make sure mold/fungus growth doesn't begin. I mean, i'll be cleaning the enclosure once a week anyways because I'm a clean freak and with constant monitoring and the numbers I have already on the humidity levels, what is the big deal?

I really just need to know about lucky bamboo now as I would still like to create a bamboo forest in my enclosure to go along with my umbrella plant.

 

[carol5208]

Just make sure if you are going to mist only two times a day, that ONE: your chameleon is going to drink from mistings that are going to be short enough to not flood out the tank, as sometimes it take several minutes or more for them to start drinking and TWO: make sure your chameleon is going to drink from misting: period! My chameleon does not drink from the mistings, therefore I have to run a dripper most of the day, and yes it will flood out your tank. If you can mist for a very short period and are sure your chameleon is drinking, then I guess you will be ok. Sounds like you got everything else figured out. Just make sure your tank does not get too hot, or you will cook the little guy. BTW the average relative humidity in Yemen is 59% during the year.

 

[Carlton]

I'm actually rather surprised by you guys saying the tank is too small. Juveniles up to three and a half months are commonly kept in tanks around 10 gallons according to multiple sources. Even if you type in "how tall of an enclosure does a veiled chameleon need?" into google the first five searches include evidence that juveniles are commonly kept in much smaller enclosures than a 20 gallon tank.

As for drainage, I have a hydropad that is preferorated and airated with an air pump. You can have it soaking in the sink for an hour and just sitting it on a counter at room temperature it will dry within 5 minutes. Adding the amount of ventilation I did, the humidity levels have been monitored at 38-50%. 38% humidity 4 hours after a heavy misting inside the tank and 50% humidity right after misting. Through out the day I have monitored the average humidity to be around 46%. According to multiple sources veiled chameleons enjoy anywhere between 30-60% humidity. In other words, low-moderate humidity like I said.

And the question I really wanted answered is in regard to the dracaena or lucky bamboo. My only questions in regards to my tank were with ventilation and I really just wanted responses from people with actual experience in glass terrariums. I have monitored the enclosure in every condition it will be in, in regards to water content/temperature and the humidity levels are perfect. I'm glad I went ahead and did this myself to prove the enclosure would be ideal in regards to humidity instead of waiting for you guys to just tell me it wouldn't be without even a picture of the setup.

And really, even if I didn't have a hydropad for my tank, these chameleons only require heavy misting of their plants twice a day according to the local herp center/two of the cham care blogs I read. Water doesn't even collect on the bottom of the tank during mistings and the plants will be in forthstand pots that allow air passage that are cleaned out and replaced every other week. In other words, not at any time, despite maybe a flood, is there ever standing water in the tank or even humidity over 65%. I pretty much answered my first question just by monitoring the humidity levels and making sure it was okay myself. With the airflow/hydropad I can literally not find moisture in the tank period. Also, with the hydropad its extremely easy to clean the enclosure. If there ever were standing water or even enough moisture to create mold, you would see it as the hydropad would be floating on it lol. Just pulling up a corner of the hydropad under a potted plant and checking for moisture every day doesn't seem like that big of a hassle to make sure mold/fungus growth doesn't begin lol.

I really just need to know about lucky bamboo now as I would still like to create a bamboo forest in my enclosure to go along with my umbrella plant.

Believe me, we are not trying to argue with you about the tank for arguments' sake, but we do have concerns based on a lot of active experience! The orientation of the tank is part of the problem...its a horizontally oriented space which won't work well for an arboreal cham (unless you are planning to house him in it temporarily and move him to a larger screen or part screen cage as he grows).

The reason cham enclosures need to be larger is because they actively thermoregulate by moving between different heat and humidity zones. Difficult to maintain in a tank or in a too-small enclosure. A cham will use all the space it's given, and the better foliage plants for chams will outgrow this tank pretty fast. A sturdy schefflera will be too large initially or will outgrow it quickly.

The "multiple sources" you mentioned that say juvenile chams can be kept in a 20 gal tank may or may not be good info sources. This forum membership is made up of lots of current active thoughtful keepers and breeders so worth trusting. Do NOT trust much of anything your local herp center says! Local stores are notorious for telling you what you want to hear and are mostly clueless about the proper care of chams. I've lived a lot of places and can count on one hand the ones that had much if any good husbandry info to share.

The comment about only needing to spray the enclosure once or twice a day is misleading. Depending on your climate, the climate in the room you'll need to spray as often as the cage humidity dictates...and in winter when house humidity tends to drop due to heating, it could be more often. Or, in summer if you need an AC running. You will need to measure the enclosure humidity level accurately and spray as necessary for your situation.

Also, even a veiled needs some exposure to higher humidity levels than 50%. The levels you describe are borderline too low. I would not keep a veiled in less than 60% humidity with spikes of higher levels. Yes, air exchange is important, but you can create it very easily and it doesn't have to be extreme.

Even if you don't ask for or want to hear concerns about your ideas, if you give the details about your enclosure design you are going to hear them. We just want to keep you and your cham from running in to the problems we hear so often once the cham is in trouble.

I'm not sure the lucky bamboo will work very well. If the cham climbs all over it the leaves may be repeatedly damaged. They don't support much weight. If I remember right Dracaenas are vertical without horizontal spreading branches or leaves. Please correct me if I'm wrong (won't be the first time!) May not provide much climbing area or droplet retention. The schefflera will.

I tried some of those hydropads in a cham cage once and found they didn't do much for humidity maintenance in anything but a pretty small enclosed space like a snake sweaterbox. And, unless you have some sort of protection on the top your cham is going to be pooping all over it introducing fecal bacteria into the media.

You are going to do what you are going to do. We are just trying to save you some trouble later.

 

[Sticktongue]

About the bamboo. Even if it would start a mini forest (i dont have any information about it) you will NOT be housing the cham in there long enough to have it grow very much. Chams grow REALLY fast. You WILL at some point have to buy a bigger cage for him. So maybe when he is grown and into an adult cage, you could try the bamboo and give us feedback on how it works. Sounds to me like it would be cool if it did.

About your sources. Their are a lot of people on here that know what they are doing, and just trying to save you some heartache. Why wouldn't you want to believe people on here (especially senior members) instead of your google sources? I'm sorry, but the information you read is wrong. Carol makes a good point about the humidity in yemen being 59 on an AVERAGE. that means when it rains it gets higher than that. You will run into water problems if youre watering enough. Like carol said, if you're only misting a twice a day, a dripper needs to be going as well which will put out a lot of water. Between 2 cages, I go through 5 gallons of water in 2 days. I know you've tested it out, But how long did you mist when you ran your test runs? I found in MY experience, that when you think the cage is wet enough, mist for as long as you just did again. They take awhile to start drinking sometimes.

Sorry if this came off as a mean post to you. You seemed to get pretty defensive when we were just kindly trying to help you. So if it comes off that way, I'm sorry. Just my thoughts..