My new wild-caught veiled...he shows self-awareness via the mirror test

[Virgil1972]

You do realize there is a permit for raptors and migratory birds. http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/protected-wildlife/raptors/
Furthermore; "not in their nature"? Cats are solitary creatures and form strong bonds with humans. I will agree that most chameleons are solitary, and my female Oustalet is a prime example, I rarely handle her because she is very independent. However she knows who I am, and will only allow me to handle her; even coming out of her cage to me to get eye drops when she got an eye infection. Try being a little more open minded and optimistic, a great many of scientists invented and discovered stuff that was seemingly impossible. http://sfglobe.com/2015/06/17/a-costa-rican-man-shares-an-incredible-bond-with-a-crocodile/ I'm assuming you wouldn't believe in this bond with the man and his crocodile because it is "against their nature". And I never stated that there was anything scientific behind my observations, I simply stated what I saw and proposed a possible scientific method to inquiry about my observations and asked for opinions and positive criticism. Unfortunately if everyone followed your thought process the scientific method would be meaningless if there is no previous scientific information to back up someones observations.
I rest my case.

You can't really compare a mammal like a cat with a reptile. Their brains do not work the same way.

 

[MarkP6644]

If I'm not mistaken a crocodile is a reptile? And I didn't imply cat's and reptiles brains worked the same way, I used that comparison to show the ignorance of the previous statement. Cats were solitary and yet after a long time of human interaction, and natural selection they have learned to form bonds with humans. Excuse me for pointing out the ignorance of the very black and white statement: "A chameleon does not have the capacity to "bond" with a chameleon, much less a human. It is not in their nature." That kind of ignorance hinders scientific exploration.

 

[Virgil1972]

If I'm not mistaken a crocodile is a reptile? And I didn't imply cat's and reptiles brains worked the same way, I used that comparison to show the ignorance of the previous statement. Cats were solitary and yet after a long time of human interaction, and natural selection they have learned to form bonds with humans. Excuse me for pointing out the ignorance of the very black and white statement: "A chameleon does not have the capacity to "bond" with a chameleon, much less a human. It is not in their nature." That kind of ignorance hinders scientific exploration.

What scientific test did they do on the crocodile?

 

[MarkP6644]

Look, just take your straw-man argument to another thread...I never stated there was a scientific test done (though scientists did research the bond between the man and the crocodile). I'm done arguing with you guys, as stated previously I came here with an observation in hope that people might be interested and offer positive criticism and opinions.

 

[Virgil1972]

All I see is a cham getting fired up at seeing his reflection.

 

[MarkP6644]

As I mentioned previously that was one of the first pics of Zeus I took after capturing him from the wild, of course he was fired up....and considering there is no mirror in that pic, it would be hard for him to get fired up at seeing his reflection. Again, I asked for positive criticism and opinions, there is no need for your conjecture.

 

[MarkP6644]

In case you want to add your conjecture on that statement, he is an invasive species, I am licensed to capture invasive species, and the majority of his habitat had just got destroyed so he was literally all alone in a small patch of tree's...which have since been cut down and burned.

 

[jajeanpierre]

You do realize there is a permit for raptors and migratory birds. http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/protected-wildlife/raptors/
Furthermore; "not in their nature"? Cats are solitary creatures and form strong bonds with humans. I will agree that most chameleons are solitary, and my female Oustalet is a prime example, I rarely handle her because she is very independent. However she knows who I am, and will only allow me to handle her; even coming out of her cage to me to get eye drops when she got an eye infection. Try being a little more open minded and optimistic, a great many of scientists invented and discovered stuff that was seemingly impossible. http://sfglobe.com/2015/06/17/a-costa-rican-man-shares-an-incredible-bond-with-a-crocodile/ I'm assuming you wouldn't believe in this bond with the man and his crocodile because it is "against their nature". And I never stated that there was anything scientific behind my observations, I simply stated what I saw and proposed a possible scientific method to inquiry about my observations and asked for opinions and positive criticism. Unfortunately if everyone followed your thought process the scientific method would be meaningless if there is no previous scientific information to back up someones observations.
I rest my case.

Yes, I do realize permits are available. And you have one?

You are comparing animals that have a completely different natural history.

A cat, a mammal, is not as solitary as you would think. They raise their young. They have maternal instincts.

A crocodile has maternal instincts.

A chameleon does not.

Chameleons don't need what you are peddling.

 

[cyberlocc]

So glad I subbed . Just to throw my 2¢s, I defiantly agree you are anthropomorphizing this cham. He does not need a mirror to make sure his whole body is hidden either.

Mine looks backwards at itself all the time when she wants to hide completely, no mirror necessary.

To me this seems like a ploy to prove you have bonded with a chameleon, you have not, you will not, it will not happen.

 

[Shilohpsu]

Saw this video on tv a while ago. These guys put a big mirror in the jungle (I'm assuming the African Congo region). The chimps show the most self awareness. There's even a bird in there for jeanpierre. Enjoy!

 

[MarkP6644]

So glad I subbed . Just to throw my 2¢s, I defiantly agree you are anthropomorphizing this cham. He does not need a mirror to make sure his whole body is hidden either.

Mine looks backwards at itself all the time when she wants to hide completely, no mirror necessary.

To me this seems like a ploy to prove you have bonded with a chameleon, you have not, you will not, it will not happen.

If you would have read my earlier posts i never said he needs a mirror to hide his entire body. I stated that if all that is visible from his field of vision is a mirror with a perceived threat he can still hide. Thus; he looks through mirror and can recognize a perceived threat (another male chameleon), knows that he is not that perceived threat (self-awareness), and hides his body from the other chameleon which can only be seen through the mirror. As I state this is a hypothesis and I again beg for anyone of you guys to find me another instance of a chameleon that can do this, or try it with your own.

Edit: I am not saying that he is definitely self-aware; that is a far assumption, and doesn't have research to back it up. But I am stating that I do believe there is a possibility that he is self-aware and there might be a way to further test this.

 

[Shilohpsu]

My veiled Cham Herbert tends to like looking in a small mirror that we have hanging on the wall. He tries to go for it whenever we're walking past it. He doesn't get upset (puffing, color changes, open mouth) but just likes clawing at it with his front legs. But as most of you guys know, they all have different personalities. This Cham in the video obviously doesn't have self awareness, because he thinks it's a rival male.


One time I took Herbert away from the mirror that he likes, and I thought he was having a seizure. Moving his back legs really fast and clawing at my arm with them. I did some research and he was humping my arm... Not sure why a mirror excited him, but here is a video of a Cham doing that after a mirror encounter.


We joke and say that Herbie is a narcissist because he seems to enjoy mirrors and not feel threatened like the first video. Always turns his normal relaxed colors and just wants to claw at it. We assume that he enjoys it because he'll always go towards it when we're holding him near it. If you turn him away from it, he'll just turn around and go back to doing the same thing. I just took him over to the mirror so I can show you what he does. He'll do this indefinitely until we move him away from it.

 

[MarkP6644]

Yes, I do realize permits are available. And you have one?

You are comparing animals that have a completely different natural history.

A cat, a mammal, is not as solitary as you would think. They raise their young. They have maternal instincts.

A crocodile has maternal instincts.

A chameleon does not.

Chameleons don't need what you are peddling.

Don't ever tell me I don't take proper care of my chameleons, I take amazing care of them. I am willing to bet that my custom cages are larger than whatever you keep your chameleons in (not to mention I allow them to free roam), I've invested way more money for the proper lighting and set-ups to (as closely as possible) resemble their natural environments, and have spent much more time researching chameleons than you. I will also bet that they have a far wider variety of insects than you feed yours, and that they are at least as healthy if not healthier than yours, and have lived to be much older than any single one of yours.
Domestic cats today came from territorial, asocial species. https://books.google.nl/books?id=bqz9-IUUwdcC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=Y9_wZXx7tH&sig=kVwz6KYCVtpoJ_dvzQvZx06jjmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEISDAG#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
https://books.google.nl/books?id=KcPESM389aUC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=h3RykbEvII&sig=Ab6t9vhTiowZK1NhZia9flNTWW0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
Do you research and don't make assumptions when you don't know what you're talking about. My apologies for suggesting that chameleons, which we all cherish as a hobby and are enthusiastic about, might be self-aware. And again I never said a crocodile (edit: does not have***) maternal instincts--they do protect their young but according to your philosophy since it is "against their nature" to befriend a human, there is no bond there and I quote "not compatible" of having a bond.

 

[MarkP6644]

My veiled Cham Herbert tends to like looking in a small mirror that we have hanging on the wall. He tries to go for it whenever we're walking past it. He doesn't get upset (puffing, color changes, open mouth) but just likes clawing at it with his front legs. But as most of you guys know, they all have different personalities. This Cham in the video obviously doesn't have self awareness, because he thinks it's a rival male.


One time I took Herbert away from the mirror that he likes, and I thought he was having a seizure. Moving his back legs really fast and clawing at my arm with them. I did some research and he was humping my arm... Not sure why a mirror excited him, but here is a video of a Cham doing that after a mirror encounter.


We joke and say that Herbie is a narcissist because he seems to enjoy mirrors and not feel threatened like the first video. Always turns his normal relaxed colors and just wants to claw at it. We assume that he enjoys it because he'll always go towards it when we're holding him near it. If you turn him away from it, he'll just turn around and go back to doing the same thing. I just took him over to the mirror so I can show you what he does. He'll do this indefinitely until we move him away from it.

Thank you for finally adding on to the conversation I intended on trying to discus. I had one other chameleon who would kind of touch the mirror like your Herbert. Zeus is the same in that he likes mirrors and does not puff out or get angry...I can't say he has humped my arm though hahah, that's hilarious.

 

[MarkP6644]

Saw this video on tv a while ago. These guys put a big mirror in the jungle (I'm assuming the African Congo region). The chimps show the most self awareness. There's even a bird in there for jeanpierre. Enjoy!

Yeah I saw this video awhile ago as well, and recently came across it which is kind of what led me to wonder if perhaps chameleons could be self-aware. It was just weird how he was chilling on my head, then when my gf walked in the bathroom he saw her (through the mirror) and hid his body all while focusing solely on the mirror, then even hid his tail and veil while watching myself and her through the mirror the entire time instead of turning his eyes to look at us which he easily could have done.
Edit: And there's no denying the chimps show self-awareness, that's a cool video to see.

 

[cyberlocc]

Don't ever tell me I don't take proper care of my chameleons, I take amazing care of them. I am willing to bet that my custom cages are larger than whatever you keep your chameleons in (not to mention I allow them to free roam), I've invested way more money for the proper lighting and set-ups to (as closely as possible) resemble their natural environments, and have spent much more time researching chameleons than you. I will also bet that they have a far wider variety of insects than you feed yours, and that they are at least as healthy if not healthier than yours, and have lived to be much older than any single one of yours.
Domestic cats today came from territorial, asocial species. https://books.google.nl/books?id=bqz9-IUUwdcC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=Y9_wZXx7tH&sig=kVwz6KYCVtpoJ_dvzQvZx06jjmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEISDAG#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
https://books.google.nl/books?id=KcPESM389aUC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=h3RykbEvII&sig=Ab6t9vhTiowZK1NhZia9flNTWW0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
Do you research and don't make assumptions when you don't know what you're talking about. My apologies for suggesting that chameleons, which we all cherish as a hobby and are enthusiastic about, might be self-aware. And again I never said a crocodile (edit: does not have***) maternal instincts--they do protect their young but according to your philosophy since it is "against their nature" to befriend a human, there is no bond there and I quote "not compatible" of having a bond.

OHHHH this is going to be good.

Get him Jean .

You may want to take your own advice and research who you are talking to, before saying things like that. Jean will fill you in who she is.

Just some for front before she comes back. You care for Panthers and Veiled, only a couple. She breeds wild caught Quads. The difficulty scale tips way way to her side. That is not even including the other rare WC species that she possesses, and succeeds with!

Please realize being able to keep a veiled alive does not make you a chameleon expert, that is the easiest species there is lol.

 

[MarkP6644]

OHHHH this is going to be good.

Get him Jean .

You may want to take your own advice and research who you are talking to, before saying things like that. Jean will fill you in who she is.

Just some for front before she comes back. You care for Panthers and Veiled, only a couple. She breeds wild caught Quads. The difficulty scale tips way way to her side. That is not even including the other rare WC species that she possesses, and succeeds with!

Please realize being able to keep a veiled alive does not make you a chameleon expert, that is the easiest species there is lol.

I caught all my Veiled's and Oustalets in the wild. It's a rewarding experience, you should get out and try it. And I breed Oustalets and Panthers, the Veileds just happen to be caught while pregnant so I have had multiple clutches of Veileds. Also, you both need to learn to read and not put words in peoples mouths--(open-mindness and less ignorance?). I never said I am a chameleon expert, but I do know I take great care of my chameleons (given the amount, or lack there of) knowledge we have on them. I also feel good knowing that my chameleons are happy; and instead of being cooped up get to explore and free roam, hunt for themselves, and eat a large variety of wild insects.

 

[cyberlocc]

Also, you both need to learn to read and not put words in peoples mouths--(open-mindness and less ignorance?). I never said I am a chameleon expert, but I do know I take great care of my chameleons

Hmm really,

have spent much more time researching chameleons than you.

That could of fooled me. Oh how about this,

Don't ever tell me I don't take proper care of my chameleons, I take amazing care of them. I am willing to bet that my custom cages are larger than whatever you keep your chameleons in (not to mention I allow them to free roam), I've invested way more money for the proper lighting and set-ups to (as closely as possible) resemble their natural environments, and have spent much more time researching chameleons than you. I will also bet that they have a far wider variety of insects than you feed yours, and that they are at least as healthy if not healthier than yours, and have lived to be much older than any single one of yours.

Now, who is to say that a bigger cage is better? Or what size is best? Not you, Not me that is for sure, likely not even jean.

Then you made this statement "I've invested way more money for the proper lighting and set-ups to (as closely as possible) resemble their natural environments"

Seeing how she owns 3x as many chameleons as you do, I highly doubt this is the case.

This one, "I will also bet that they have a far wider variety of insects than you feed yours"
I dont ask her how many feeders she has, so IDK.

"that they are at least as healthy if not healthier than yours, and have lived to be much older than any single one of yours."
Yet again we see the arrogance, and assumptions.

You need to learn how to handle yourself as an scientist, as I am not seeing that level of maturity, in your posts. This entire post of, "well I do X better I bet". Is something that a child would say. This is not elementary school, we are not here to play "I am better" games, nor deal with immaturity.

You made a scientific claim, one that has been disproved for years. The facts are on our side not yours, if you want us to see your side as truth. Then you need factual and accurately disclose your claim and facts leading your thesis. Along with proper tests and research to back said claims, in a well versed manner. Acting like as you have with the immaturity and bashing, and portraying your findings in that way as you are just discredited you even more.

From there I will let Jean deal with you, if she even feels it is worth her time. (doubtful, as I dont)

Have a good day.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Don't ever tell me I don't take proper care of my chameleons, I take amazing care of them. I am willing to bet that my custom cages are larger than whatever you keep your chameleons in (not to mention I allow them to free roam), I've invested way more money for the proper lighting and set-ups to (as closely as possible) resemble their natural environments, and have spent much more time researching chameleons than you. I will also bet that they have a far wider variety of insects than you feed yours, and that they are at least as healthy if not healthier than yours, and have lived to be much older than any single one of yours.
Domestic cats today came from territorial, asocial species. https://books.google.nl/books?id=bqz9-IUUwdcC&pg=PA420&lpg=PA420&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=Y9_wZXx7tH&sig=kVwz6KYCVtpoJ_dvzQvZx06jjmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEISDAG#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
https://books.google.nl/books?id=KcPESM389aUC&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=cat+evolution+asocial&source=bl&ots=h3RykbEvII&sig=Ab6t9vhTiowZK1NhZia9flNTWW0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj75sqM4NfNAhUCGR4KHTF6Dx0Q6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=cat evolution asocial&f=false
Do you research and don't make assumptions when you don't know what you're talking about. My apologies for suggesting that chameleons, which we all cherish as a hobby and are enthusiastic about, might be self-aware. And again I never said a crocodile (edit: does not have***) maternal instincts--they do protect their young but according to your philosophy since it is "against their nature" to befriend a human, there is no bond there and I quote "not compatible" of having a bond.

You seem to have a great deal of trouble understanding my written word. Reread what I have written. Nowhere do I comment on the care you take of your chameleons. You have taken this discussion to a new low with a childish ad hominem argument of who takes better care of their animals or spends more money on them.

You propose a hypothesis supposedly using a well-known experiment but you don't replicate the experiment. You suggest a chameleon possesses social traits (by bonding with a human) that goes against everything that is known by science about the very nature of chameleons. You do not use scientific method to prove your hypothesis, yet throw the term around as if you know what it means. You reference experiments on self awareness (using a mirror) done by scientists--who used the scientific method by the way--but don't follow their methodology. You create the illusion that you are performing the same experiment with a very limited number of test subjects with no controls think it has value.

You title the thread: "My new wild-caught veiled...he shows self-awareness via the mirror test"
Your first post on the thread refers, both in the title and in the post that you did "the mirror test" with several chameleons.

The experiments using the mirror to test self awareness--actually they were designed to test self recognition and were known as Mirror Self-Recognition Test--were performed on a variety of species and were quite similar, The "experiment" you set up and your observations does not in any way "mirror" those experiments, pun intended. (Note: Self awareness is not the same as being conscious of your self within the environment, but is one step further in awareness and recognizing one is aware that they are aware of themselves within the environment. It is about introspection.) You have misappropriated the name of a very valid experiment and twisted it into something else else entirely, all the while calling it this very well known experiment.

The experiments you are alluding to, and I repeat yours bear no resemblance to those experiments, were done in a very controlled fashion as all scientific experiments that have any value are. Basically, a mark of some sort that had no odor was applied to a part of the animals that it could not see unless using a mirror. Chimps were anaesthetized and an odorless mark was applied. When they were shown a mirror, the animals touched and investigated the spot they could not see and did not know was on their body until they saw it in the mirror. Magpies had their throat feathers colored (a bird cannot see below it's beak as the beak blocks its vision) and they started scratching at their throats.

That's "The Mirror Test." You didn't do a "Mirror Test."

And then you throw out the suggestion that chameleons, a species that has no social interactions except to mate and defend territory and have no maternal instincts, might bond with a human. For examples to prove your argument you use two species that have very strong maternal instincts (and have formed relationships with humans--I'll take your word for the crocodile story but who knows if that isn't perhaps a load of crock, too), both species that supposedly live solitary lives. Somehow that proves a chameleon can bond with a human.

You attribute words to me I never said.

You state I don't know what I am talking about.

And then your argument degenerates even further into a childish ad hominem argument about who spends more money on their chameleons or who takes better care of them.

Best of all, you bring up the evolution of domestic cats from Felis silvestris lybica or the African Wild Cat. This is so funny, I had to leave it to last because the African Wild Cat is something I know a lot about. I own one. I brought him back from Saudi Arabia. There is nothing solitary about that cat. But I digress; you use a quote from a book on the social signaling of African Wild Cats which has absolutely nothing to do with what we have been discussing. Now, if you want to talk about the difference between the language an African Wild Cat uses and the communication skills of a domestic cat, your quote might have some value and we could have an interesting discussion. But, that's not what we are talking about, is it?

Ad hominem attacks, straw man arguments, the list of fallacious arguments is endless.

But most important, and the reason I responded to this thread is that I don't want the novice person to think their chameleon will ever love them or enjoy being mauled by them. I and others end up writing a lot of responses in the health section when those very same animals end up in poor health because they have a suppressed immune system from the chronic stress of being handled. That's why I responded. What you wrote is not good for chameleons.

 

[jannb]

I'm not to sure about self awareness in the mirror but chameleons can be very sociable. I spend hours each day interacting with my chameleons. I have formed a bond with every chameleon that I have ever had. I truly love them and show them nothing but love and respect. People that keep their animals cages and don't take them out and interact with them know nothing about their chameleon nor what they are capable of doing. Every animal I've ever had even my chameleons have their own personality and likes and dislikes. Most would much rather be on me or my husband that in any tree. I have some that would like to hang on me 24/7 if they could. I also think it takes many many years to learn about chameleons and I learn new things from my vets and other experienced keepers just about everyday. No one ever knows everything about chameleons because we are all still learning. It's really important to try to get new pet information from experienced keepers and not a newbie or even worse, someone who thinks they know what they are doing but really doesn't. As far as the mirror thing personally I try to avoid mirrors with my guys. Occasionally they come in contact with one and some react as if an intruder is in our house and others ignore them. For the ones that are stress by a mirror we have them covered in their areas. So I have poster board on the mirrors in my china hutch and mirror closet doors put up inside out. It's our responsibility to learn about our animals and know what they like and dislike like. It's also our responsibility to protect them.