my cham has a tongue issue.

[Dr O]

One of my Sambavas currently has a hyperextension issue. When I first got him he was banging out his tongue more like a veiled than a panther, and then he cramped.

I'm lucky enough that I could knock him out briefly and give him a thorough oral exam, and I gave him a steroid injection which started helping within 24 hours. It still needs to rest, but I had to intervene since it had already been a few weeks with minimal improvement.

I posted this for posterity to remind everyone not to always jump right to calcium, vit's A & D.


dr. o-

 

[kinyonga]

kevinopp...when it is a nutrient imbalance, how often is it vitamin A that's the culprit??

 

[Dr O]

I don't know that I have ever seen any study that has differentiated between which vitamins may be more or less responsible for these issues. However, we certainly do know that 90 to 95% of all reptilian diseases that we see arise from improper husbandry, which of course includes nutrition. The times that I have seen the problem specifically related to vitamin A is usually when there is either no supplementation, poor or expired supplementation, or not enough diversity in the diet. besides the standard supplements that we use and recommend commonly in this forum, I personally do supplement my lizards with as much wild food as possible. Of course, I think that method gives them the best nutritional balance that they can possibly have and is most closely replicating their natural living conditions.

 

[Dr O]

kevinopp...when it is a nutrient imbalance, how often is it vitamin A that's the culprit??

And I guess it is fair to say that I certainly see about 20 calcium issues for every vitamin A issue.

 

[kinyonga]

I should have been clearer...how many tongue issues are due to vitamin A imbalances?

 

[MagicEngineer]

What I think you should do, is take him to a vet, have them do the blood work and make your dietary adjustments based on facts instead of speculation. That way you don't chance making the problem worse.

 

[Dr O]

I should have been clearer...how many tongue issues are due to vitamin A imbalances?

sorry, got it.

imho, without corresponding ocular issues (which are the primary sign in virtually all cases of hypovitaminosis A), very, very few. and it's usually just so obvious; bilaterally swollen eyes, respiratory infections, and history of no or poor vitamin A supplementation. if i only have a paretic or paralytic tongue as the primary sign, and vitamin A has been given regularly enough, i will hardly consider it as a differential diagnosis. calcium, vit. D, sepsis, a localized bacterial infection, or lingual trauma wil be far and away my top differentials.

in my own lizards, i have had 2 chams with tongue issues. both times it was trauma (the first one swallowed his tongue, and the recent one hyperextended it. remind me to post the story sometime of the tongue-swallowing incident! what a night!!). now both times i've been lucky enough to basically have witnessed the traumatic incidents, so there really never was any reason to look further. but even if i hadn't been there to see it, i would still know from my husbandry that it would be practically impossible to be a nutritional disorder. in those cases i would certainly look for a bacterial cause to rule that out since it could also mean the diference between life and death of my lizard.

in this current thread, since the history is a bit sketchy due to different owners and care, i would certainly recommend bloodwork, at least one x-ray, and stong supportive care until the results are in. i would personally be very surprised if the only treatment instituted was additional vit. A and the signs went away, and even if that did happen, i would still suspect that it was another issue that resolved itself one way or another.

 

[kinyonga]

Thankyou kevinopp! Several people on the forum lately have been saying that tongue issues were due to a vitamin A issue and although I was sure it was not likely (not impossible since a vitamin A imbalance might play a part in MBD related issues...but not at all likely)...so I'm glad to read your comments on it. It has always been my opinion that tongue issues could be caused by infection, trauma, calcium/vit. D imbalances usually and possibly dehydration once in a while too....and were not likely to be the result of a vitamin A imbalance.

 

[Dr O]

If anyone on this forum happens to have any medical studies that do show that vitamin A can be the sole cause of tongue issues please shoot me a PM or post the links on this thread. I would certainly be very interested to read it.

 

[kinyonga]

I's be interested too.

 

[chamlover98]

One of my Sambavas currently has a hyperextension issue. When I first got him he was banging out his tongue more like a veiled than a panther, and then he cramped.

I'm lucky enough that I could knock him out briefly and give him a thorough oral exam, and I gave him a steroid injection which started helping within 24 hours. It still needs to rest, but I had to intervene since it had already been a few weeks with minimal improvement.

I posted this for posterity to remind everyone not to always jump right to calcium, vit's A & D.


dr. o-

was he cup feeding at all? I've heard story's of chams trying to cup feed and hit the side of the cup and damaging their tongues

 

[Dr O]

Good call! That day was superworm day, so they do go into cups otherwise they tend to hide in the screen splining. I only had him for about 2 weeks at that point and I could hear his tongue across the room smacking the bowl. I took it out and he was still ok for a day or so chasing crix with crazy distance on his tongue, and then...nada.

After that and the workup that he had last week under anesthesia he's ironically back to the bowl so that he can carefully choose his prey and munch it while only using 1-2" of tongue if it all. But if a feeder gets out of the bowl, he can hit it pretty hard again at about 8". But I'm still trying to rest him, knowing what his tongue is capable of.

dr. o-

 

[sandrachameleon]

I posted this for posterity to remind everyone not to always jump right to calcium, vit's A & D.
dr. o-

An excellent reminder.

 

[Olimpia]

Kevin, one of these days you're going to have to tell me more about the tongue-swallowing incident. I had a female veiled do the same thing and had to have it amputated. I didn't see it happen and I've never been able to figure out why something like this would happen, I'd be interested in comparing notes.

 

[Dr O]

What a night. I was a young vet, an associate at a practice in Melbourne. For whatever reason I was up late with my Nosy Be and I fed him. He's doing his thing, and then I just noticed that the crickets were not disappearing anymore. So I look and he's extending his hyoid bone (which the tongue is usually threaded on), but the tongue itself was making a 180 degree turn back into his mouth. I look and sure enough, he had swallowed his tongue.

Now chameleon stomach acid is pretty stout stuff, so time was of the essence. I rushed him down to my hospital in the middle of the night, put him out under anesthesia, and slowly pulled the entire length of his tongue back out of his gullet. And he was a big Cham, so I'm left with a sleeping chameleon and 10" of incredibly sticky tongue just laid all around the table. So as he woke up, I slowly and patiently threaded it back onto his hyoid bone. Unfortunately, even in the 45 minutes or so that is took, he had already started to digest his own tongue. All I could do was smack him with antibiotics and anti-inflammatories and hope for the best. And miracle of miracles, it worked, and he began using it normally after I rested it for a week or so.

Unfortunately, 2 months later I came home to see it hanging, paralyzed out of his mouth. And it had been out all day so it was already dry to the touch. The next day he bit it off, and was hand fed for the next 3 years. It was so sad to see him lose his magnificent temporal muscles on either side of his head crest which help to propel the tongue---the areas just became concave. Eventually it just took its toll and he just was slowly wasting away, and I put him to sleep.

Never again, please!!