Mouth issues?

[IrohtheVeiled]

Iroh gave me a rare glimpse into his mouth and I spotted something that I think may be cause for concern

I’ve never seen that white patch in the back, I don’t normally get a good picture of the back of throat.

He’s going in to see the vet Tuesday, but I’m curious if anyone can tell me what I’m seeing.

 

[Beman]

I mean I am not seeing anything of concern. I think a lot of what you are seeing is the angle and stretch he is at along with the skin being thinner there so your lighting above is hitting quite perfectly. The rest of the mouth is a perfect pale pink as well.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

This is a huge sigh of relief thanks for getting back to me - he’s due for a checkup so I’m keeping the vet appointment- I’m always nervous with this guy as he’s the most demanding pet I’ve had and I know things can get out of hand quick

 

[Beman]

This is a huge sigh of relief thanks for getting back to me - he’s due for a checkup so I’m keeping the vet appointment- I’m always nervous with this guy as he’s the most demanding pet I’ve had and I know things can get out of hand quick

Nah he looks great. Make sure if the vet wants to give a vitamin shot you say no. I have seen this go very poorly for chams when they are given them. And honestly if supplements are on point there would never be a reason to get one done. Taking in a fresh fecal is always a good idea at least annually to ensure there is not a parasite load.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

Yeah that’s what I’m thinking too I’ve had him about six months and he hasn’t seen a vet so I probably needed to get him in anyways

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

what should a healthy weight be? At ten months he’s at 123

I started weighing him a couple of weeks ago he was 113 I believe he’s at 124 now, I started giving him a few extra feeders here and there

 

[Beman]

what should a healthy weight be? At ten months he’s at 123

I started weighing him a couple of weeks ago he was 113 I believe he’s at 124 now, I started giving him a few extra feeders here and there

It depends on his total length. if he is roughly 14-15 inches from the tip of the nose to the end of his tail then he is right in the sweet spot for his weight. Watching his body tone and mainly the casque is what you want to do. It is very easy for them to go from getting enough for growth to getting more than needed and retaining fat pockets as they get closer to the 1 year mark.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

*update*

Iroh went to the vet today and after his examination I was told he looks great and appears to be healthy!

-I got complimented on my husbandry and that’s all thanks to you guys here so thank you for your guidance with me learning how to take care of dude

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

Iroh got his fecal back today, he’s coming up positive for Cocidia - the vet says they don’t have the specific kind of cocidia to determine if it’s the problematic kind. I have to follow up with him to determine next steps to address it’.

I’m going to start cleaning Irohs cage with steam. I’m assuming that I’ll have to address the underlying hygiene issue or he’ll end up with it again.

Any input on how to address this?

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

His appetite is normal and he isn’t lethargic and his stools are normal, so I’m not sure I would’ve caught it without getting the fecal done.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

He’s also still gaining weight - vet said some strains can exist and be present in the gi tract but they dont go far enough with the classification to determine if it’s problematic

 

[Beman]

Iroh got his fecal back today, he’s coming up positive for Cocidia - the vet says they don’t have the specific kind of cocidia to determine if it’s the problematic kind. I have to follow up with him to determine next steps to address it’.

I’m going to start cleaning Irohs cage with steam. I’m assuming that I’ll have to address the underlying hygiene issue or he’ll end up with it again.

Any input on how to address this?

So this one is not a good one as it is very hard to clean for and get rid of. Steam will not kill it off. Did they say what the parasite load was? Normally the fecal will say how many oocysts were seen in the fecal and this is how they determine the parasite load. They will more then likely prescribe an oral mediacation called ponazural. You have to be extremely careful not to cross contaminate anything from the cage. The oocysts (eggs) are very very hard to kill. ALL porous items have to be removed. You can not clean these well enough to put them back in. This includes plants and real branches. While being treated you want to do a very bare cage so you can quickly and easily spot clean. You want to prevent him drinking or eating off of a surface where he passes fecal because he can recontaminate himself if he picks up the oocysts. Cleaning the cage means stripping it completely. Then for the actual cage you will use 40 volume liquid peroxide in a spray bottle. This has to sit on all surfaces of the cage for like 20 minutes to actually kill off the coccidia. Use GLOVES AND EYE PROTECTION> This stuff is wicked strong. You can get it from any beauty supply store like Sally's. This is literally what they use when they bleach out your hair blonde. Then you are going to use water and rinse extremely well. You can follow up with washing it all down with dawn soap then rinsing back off with hot water.
Then you have to keep the cage spot cleaned. You need to be able to get 3 clean fecals before he is actually considered parasite free. All vets do this differently some will wait 3 weeks for the first fecal after the last dose of medicine then space them every 2-3 weeks. This is important because you want to make sure the parasite is gone before you put all the plants back in the cage.

Where you are ahead of the game is that he is happy and content. He has not exprienced a stressful event which can lower the immune system and allow this parasite to multiply. He is still eating and gaining weight. The issue is that he will not reach his potential for growth with coccidia. It keeps them smaller and under weight and development. This is what you want to treat it while they are as healthy as possible. When they are not you are fighting a hard battle.

This is my thread from when I dealt with it. Please note not all situations turn out like mine. The stress on the animal, if they are eating, and the parasite load played a big part in my bad outcome. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/coccidia-help-and-cleaning-advice-please.170202/

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

So does this mean all the plants have branches have to be replaced I’m assuming to ensure there’s no cross contamination?

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

Sorry I reread and saw that you mentioned this

 

[Beman]

So does this mean all the plants have branches have to be replaced I’m assuming to ensure there’s no cross contamination?

Yep... especially when it comes to the end of his treatment and he is getting clean fecal results. During treatment until you get at least the first clean fecal you pull all plants. Those are now ok for houseplants but you still want to wash them off in the shower to remove any fecal etc. But you do not want to ever use them in the cage again. I threw out everything as I had another chameleon I was very freaked about cross contaminating to Beman. So everything porous I threw away.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

It’s gonna take time to address - vet is saying his parasite load is level 2 (moderate) or 4

He’s saying since Iroh isn’t showing signs of sickness he wants some husbandry corrections and another fecal before treatment. He’s saying I should switch over to a dripper system for hydration as he suspects he got infected from drinking off leaves that may have been exposed to his fecal matter. You able to link a thread showing how to implement a dripper hydration system?

A bit overwhelmed about the premise of deconstructing the cage throwing everything out and starting over but I want to address the issue before it gets worse.

He said he wanted me to make husbandry corrections, run another fecal and if the parasite load goes down to treat then, but to me that sounds like having to reconstruct the cage three times. I’m sure if I pushed and said I wanted to get ahead of it he’d prescribe meds but he stated his reason was meds can impact other areas of the micro flora and not just kill the parasites.

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

I’m communicating with the vet to see if he’d be open to doing a course of medication for him before I rebuild his cage, doesn’t make sense to me to disinfect the enclosure rebuild it only to have it reinfected when he’s introduced to it.

Would rather just disinfect, keep bare for 3 weeks then rebuild after the parasites are addressed as you discussed @Beman

 

[Beman]

It’s gonna take time to address - vet is saying his parasite load is level 2 (moderate) or 4

He’s saying since Iroh isn’t showing signs of sickness he wants some husbandry corrections and another fecal before treatment. He’s saying I should switch over to a dripper system for hydration as he suspects he got infected from drinking off leaves that may have been exposed to his fecal matter. You able to link a thread showing how to implement a dripper hydration system?

A bit overwhelmed about the premise of deconstructing the cage throwing everything out and starting over but I want to address the issue before it gets worse.

He said he wanted me to make husbandry corrections, run another fecal and if the parasite load goes down to treat then, but to me that sounds like having to reconstruct the cage three times. I’m sure if I pushed and said I wanted to get ahead of it he’d prescribe meds but he stated his reason was meds can impact other areas of the micro flora and not just kill the parasites.

Ok so moderate is not a low parasite load.... And they can not get coccidia from licking leaves or they would all get it. So they are not correct on this at all. The chameleon had to have had it to spread the oocysts throughout the cage including the plant leaves.

Coccidia is most commonly carried in insects. They are the hosts. Cycle can also include when the host is in with an infected reptile. Then insects can pick up the oocysts on them or ingesting them. Then the next reptile eats the host and the cycle now starts within that reptile. Buying things like crickets from places like big box stores where they toss crickets from empty cages back into the bins... so again reptile in the cage that has it and now contaminated crickets being tossed into the entire bin Then there is coccidia that they can get strait out of the egg. IF the female has it then the oocysts can come out when she is laying the eggs. Stuff I read about it and egglaying. Then there is a collection that has it. This can just be due to improper cleaning and cross contamination so it then infects an entire collection of chameleons. You can see this with some of the sellers that are not recommended. Not sure where you got him from.

Bearded dragons very commonly carry it and sometimes vets will choose not to treat if it is low numbers. With Chams you can not do this though. A stressful event can reduce their immune system and the parasite can go into overdrive in their system. Then there is the fact that reptiles like chameleons hide illness so well. So you do not want to have a ticking time bomb like coccidia in their system.

Right now your first step is pushing to get the ponazuril and start treatment. If you pull plants right now it will not matter because he already has it in his system and has a moderate parasite load. I would get the meds and before you treat him with the first dose take a part the cage.

Now what you can do is get the hard plastic reptile plants only during this period would I use these. Hang them from the top of the cage though under your misting head. So that he can drink from them sitting above where he paces fecal. You can add a drip cup above this as well using a solo plastic cup and poke tiny pin holes in the bottom. Set it on the cage top and add ice cubes it will provide a slow drip.

 

[Beman]

Also I know you are stressing... Gonna tag a few members that have dealt with this as well so they can provide some words of wisdom for you. @janjan20 @GrannyK

 

[IrohtheVeiled]

Ok so moderate is not a low parasite load.... And they can not get coccidia from licking leaves or they would all get it. So they are not correct on this at all. The chameleon had to have had it to spread the oocysts throughout the cage including the plant leaves.

Coccidia is most commonly carried in insects. They are the hosts. Cycle can also include when the host is in with an infected reptile. Then insects can pick up the oocysts on them or ingesting them. Then the next reptile eats the host and the cycle now starts within that reptile. Buying things like crickets from places like big box stores where they toss crickets from empty cages back into the bins... so again reptile in the cage that has it and now contaminated crickets being tossed into the entire bin Then there is coccidia that they can get strait out of the egg. IF the female has it then the oocysts can come out when she is laying the eggs. Stuff I read about it and egglaying. Then there is a collection that has it. This can just be due to improper cleaning and cross contamination so it then infects an entire collection of chameleons. You can see this with some of the sellers that are not recommended. Not sure where you got him from.

Bearded dragons very commonly carry it and sometimes vets will choose not to treat if it is low numbers. With Chams you can not do this though. A stressful event can reduce their immune system and the parasite can go into overdrive in their system. Then there is the fact that reptiles like chameleons hide illness so well. So you do not want to have a ticking time bomb like coccidia in their system.

Right now your first step is pushing to get the ponazuril and start treatment. If you pull plants right now it will not matter because he already has it in his system and has a moderate parasite load. I would get the meds and before you treat him with the first dose take a part the cage.

Now what you can do is get the hard plastic reptile plants only during this period would I use these. Hang them from the top of the cage though under your misting head. So that he can drink from them sitting above where he paces fecal. You can add a drip cup above this as well using a solo plastic cup and poke tiny pin holes in the bottom. Set it on the cage top and add ice cubes it will provide a slow drip.

Yeah I already started pushing for the treatment - I get my feeders from a local shop. But now I’m starting to think I shouldn’t be doing this. I don’t know how else they could’ve been introduced if not through his feeders.

The vet said if he was symptomatic and had the same parasite load he’d say he’d speciate and treat them but he didn’t do so because he’s not showing symptoms

I cup feed him so his feeders don’t get contaminated.