Morality of breeding - What bugs should you feed most

[saradoggy10]

They do. It's that last group of "in the process" that I'd be concerned about. Unwanted puppies & kittens.

I would always think there would be those who would purchase such animals. And if a breeder can't keep them then they shouldn't be breeding.
If I were to buy a bearded dragon I'd just go for the wild because I'm not willing to pay the extra money for a morph

 

[Thehippie]

lol I'm gonna jump in real quick

I feel like the thing when breeding chameleons is to have the best traits in there as possible. a larger stronger pair that may have very nice coloration or nice casque growth with little to no signs of physical issues or disabilities would make a good starting pair.

in my personal opinion, strong bones will not make a difference as without the proper lighting, supplements or care, they still have the potential to all develop mbd.

personality cannot be bred into a chameleon as they are all unique individuals who have separate mindsets. you train their personality when they hatch introducing hands, noises and tongs or anything else you need introduced in order to teach them that those things are not scary. an under socialized chameleon always has the potential to become snappy or a chameleon whos had bad experience with their owner has the potential to come off as a "mean" animal.

in many ways people dream of breeding for the right traits but in reality maybe they aren't looking at the right traits to breed. I would look at the animals previous health records. if they are prone to genetic heart or kidney problems, that may be a problem. if they are prone to mental disabilities, that may be a problem and so on. you want to breed the chameleon that will be the strongest and survive the longest with proper care.

I'm not sure about this for chameleons but If I were to take a guess, you cannot breed two chameleons from the same clutch, or even those that are related to eachother. doing this, they are genetically related and will not get the genetic variation required for a healthy chameleon.

the thing with morphs is that a lot of times, even if they look cool is that they can come out with neurological issues that make their quality of life less than what a wild type would be without their genetic differences.

and I think that's all... not trying to write a full 2 pg essay

 

[saradoggy10]

Yes! If I were to breed chameleons I would hope to get two from different breeders that have at least one generation under their belt so the heritage of the animals won't prove to be too similar. I think there is far more research to be done on morphs and their overall wellbeing.

 

[saradoggy10]

Also just to throw in there- THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT!
This is just terribly interesting to me and it makes me happy to learn more.
Keep being awesome.

 

[Redman]

I am a strong proponent of creativity and questioning, as I believe they are essential for the learning process. There is, of course, the nature of opinion to consider: If you ask 20 people the same question, you are likely to get 20 different answers.

Also, on some topics there is the risk of engaging the "witch hunt" or mob mentality.

Case in point: If you bring up the possibility of breeding African cichlids for creating Hybrids within the aquatic forums, you had best be prepared for some insults if not threats. There are purists and "Instant experts" in every variety of pet hobby, and if your opinion differs from what they advocate, watch out.

It would be like someone here proposing to attempt cross breeding 2 disparate cham varieties from different families, like Panther and Veil. Wow, watch the sparks and insults fly.

For me, having known many true scientists and having scientific leanings myself, I enjoy seeing well thought out, researched, planned, and executed experiments, much more so than what I like to call "redneck engineering" projects. You know the type: "Hey, let's slap these in a cage and see what happens!".

What I am saying, is that if you put together an actual program to research, evaluate, and work towards finding an alternative/s to current Vitamin D strategies in relation to captive populations of Chameleons, then other than issues of ethical handling of the test case animals, I can't see anything but benefit coming from it, regardless of the outcome.

So, if you have the time/budget/access to resources/technical documentation skills required, by all means go for it. I would love to see it. Just be sure as part of your research to see what is already out there so you don't waste time or recreate the proverbial wheel. And for the sake of your sanity I probably wouldn't talk about it much on the internet until you are ready to publish. People LOVE to tear down a lot more than they are willing to help. "Let me show you why I am a genius and you are an idiot! And you misspelled 3 words...idiot!" <sigh>

 

[nightanole]

I dont know about reptiles, but when "domesticating" other animals based on tame or friendly traits, they lose a lot of wild stripes/color patterns. You can see this in the more recent experiment with russian foxes. They are now friendlier than domesticated cats, but have lost most of the wild patterns and are now mostly just red.

So we would end up with a very friendly male panther, that has the patterns of a female veiled

 

[saradoggy10]

Awesome! I agree with everything Redman says except I do like to put out the question in order to solidify my theory.
If I were to just say hey let's do this without asking others I've found that my experiments can be flawed.
So if I can ask some people some questions and still feel good on my end then I'll move forward.

I'll make sure to let you know how it goes! Haha. I loved that analogy about the poop because it's totally true. Like teacup puppies. Sure they're tiny and cute but their health is SO BAD it's not worth getting one and loving it for it to die in a tragic way.

Someone else made the comment about Panthers losing their color from crossbreeding locales too much. Im sure it's very similar!

 

[Redman]

Do you have a website of any morph breeders that I could contact and ask some questions?

Sorry to say that I don't have a website for you. Most people who specialize in the pet trade tend to be very stingy in sharing of information, as they see it as a threat to their income stream.

I even know many fish people who sell pairs or trios of a particular morph that only has a male from the line carrying the morph, never a female. That way you can't immediately replicate their work and thereby threaten their sales. Not the most ethical practice, but I guess I can understand. I would just prefer it if they were up-front about it. I don't mind putting in the work to get what I want, but if I buy it, I want to know what it's carrying or not. Otherwise it's a step backwards for me.

 

[saradoggy10]

Sorry to say that I don't have a website for you. Most people who specialize in the pet trade tend to be very stingy in sharing of information, as they see it as a threat to their income stream.

I even know many fish people who sell pairs or trios of a particular morph that only has a male from the line carrying the morph, never a female. That way you can't immediately replicate their work and thereby threaten their sales. Not the most ethical practice, but I guess I can understand. I would just prefer it if there were up-front about it. I don't mind putting in the work to get what I want, but if I buy it, I want to know what it's carrying or not. Otherwise it's a step backwards for me.

The high prices of morphs and possessiveness of the traits does have an upside- because then it's much more difficult to rid of the wild strain.
Ive seen some people take even me asking the parents of the breeders chameleons as a threat. Withholding of important knowledge is going too far.

 

[Lennoncham]

I'm personally terribly interested in morphs as I think they're super cool.
As long as a breeder were breeding pure and morph would there be an issue?

I haven’t read the whole thread so this may have been addressed.

from what I understand are “morphs” not usually bred for by line breeding (inbreeding)? And would this not go against the idea of having pure lines?

 

[Thatwizard420]

I love the “what if” questions. Give it a shot. Record your findings, don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t, shouldn’t or not a good idea.. I’m excited to see what you come up

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I would always think there would be those who would purchase such animals.

These figures from the ASPCA are for the US only, and TMK does not include unwanted puppies & kittens euthanized by other than ASPCA shelters (e.g. by veterinarians, breeders, mills, local pounds, etc.)

Each year, approximately 1.5 million shelter animals are euthanized (670,000 dogs and 860,000 cats).

I don't know if anyone even has figures for reptiles, but I would guess the numbers would be close to proportional.

And if a breeder can't keep them then they shouldn't be breeding.
If I were to buy a bearded dragon I'd just go for the wild because I'm not willing to pay the extra money for a morph

We're in agreement on much. I'd have paid extra for a "natural" or "wild" were any legally available. I just have no interest in morphs that aren't the result of natural selection, and to my knowledge, natural selection and captive bred are antithetical (albeit for good reasons).

I get the economic side of things, and I'm not for blanket banning of morphs or anything. I'm just in favor of more breeders doing thing responsibly, keeping good records, diversifying their stock, etc. All that lowers profit margins (or raises prices).

I could have gotten a plain old beardie from a big-box or chain store for about half of what I paid from a breeder with an excellent rep. I have no buyer's remorse.

I'm not against your becoming a breeder if that's your calling and you have the financial security. My hope is that you wouldn't approach it with rose-colored glasses, and are prepared that you realistically and most likely will end up with a LOT of lizards you may not be able to find homes for, especially with all the reptiles that wind up being released into the wild, or dumped in reptile rescues or on veterinarian or humane society doorsteps. If you've reconciled all this, please don't take it personally; I'm new here, and really don't know anyone yet.

I think most of us here understand that taking on a pet of any kind is a commitment to care for that animal responsibly for its entire life. Yet, realistically, stuff happens, and some people have to re-home their pets.

I think I've droned on enough (I can hear the cheers from those reading this).

 

[saradoggy10]

These figures from the ASPCA are for the US only, and TMK does not include unwanted puppies & kittens euthanized by other than ASPCA shelters (e.g. by veterinarians, breeders, mills, local pounds, etc.)

I don't know if anyone even has figures for reptiles, but I would guess the numbers would be close to proportional.


We're in agreement on much. I'd have paid extra for a "natural" or "wild" were any legally available. I just have no interest in morphs that aren't the result of natural selection, and to my knowledge, natural selection and captive bred are antithetical.

I get the economic side of things, and I'm not for blanket banning of morphs or anything. I'm just in favor of more breeders doing thing responsibly, keeping good records, diversifying their stock, etc. All that lowers profit margins (or raises prices).

I could have gotten a plain old beardie from a big-box or chain store for about half of what I paid from a breeder with an excellent rep. I have no buyer's remorse.

I'm not against your becoming a breeder if that's your calling and you have the financial security. My hope is that you wouldn't approach it with rose-colored glasses, and are prepared that you realistically and most likely will end up with a LOT of lizards you may not be able to find homes for, especially with all the reptiles that wind up being released into the wild, or dumped in reptile rescues or on veterinarian or humane society doorsteps. If you've reconciled all this, please don't take it personally; I'm new here, and really don't know anyone yet.

I think most of us here understand that taking on a pet of any kind is a commitment to care for that animal responsibly for its entire life. Yet, realistically, stuff happens, and some people have to re-home their pets.

I think I've droned on enough (I can hear the cheers from those reading this).

Thanks for your thoughts! Im actually probably more new here than you are Haha. Like you said we really agree on a lot and I personally think that breeding is good as long as good records are kept. Also as long as realism is inserted into the situation.

 

[saradoggy10]

Also y'all talking like I DON'T want to hear every word to come typed by you but I promise each letter counts towards the education and greater good of those around us ^-^

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

The high prices of morphs and possessiveness of the traits does have an upside- because then it's much more difficult to rid of the wild strain.

Sorry, I don't follow that at all.

Ive seen some people take even me asking the parents of the breeders chameleons as a threat. Withholding of important knowledge is going too far.

Or it could be they have something they don't want know (e.g. inbreeding). Not saying it is—just a possibility.

 

[saradoggy10]

Sorry, I don't follow that at all.

Or it could be they have something they don't want know (e.g. inbreeding). Not saying it is—just a possibility.

Lol you could be right. The danger of not sharing info with your customers makes them think a breeder might be inbreeding.
Also what I mean is: Not everyone who wants a hognose snake is willing to pay $1200 for an albino snake. Because there will be cheaper versions available, the cheaper version will keep thriving.

 

[JoXie411]

I’m a little confused by this discussion and I’ve been seeing it pop up a lot so here is my OPINION on changing the personality of chameleons, why? Why are we constantly trying to change our chameleons habits? Why are we forcing them to bond with us, honstely I ignore my chameleons if they want out then I let them out and put them on a pot and walk away. I limit my interaction as much as possible and do it from A far. The real question is how can I change my habits as the human to give my chameleon a better life. Maybe it’s because I’ve never seen my guys as pets and more of my Lord and Savior but that’s just me.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Lol you could be right. The danger of not sharing info with your customers makes them think a breeder might be inbreeding.
Also what I mean is: Not everyone who wants a hognose snake is willing to pay $1200 for an albino snake. Because there will be cheaper versions available, the cheaper version will keep thriving.

Hognose snakes may not be the best example; to my knowledge, there are several species native to the US, so wild specimens can still be readily obtained.

In the case of bearded dragons, they can no longer be legally imported or exported from Australia (since the '60s), so all of those in the pet trade (outside Australia) are many generations removed from "wild". As previously noted, cheaper versions can be gotten, but... 'nuff said.

Chameleons (what I know so far) are... in-between. Some (at least) are regulated exports to avoid depletion of wild populations.

The extreme end of that spectrum is something like Giant Sungazers, which cannot legally be exported under any circumstances (though illegally poached specimens occasionally surface for prices in 5 figures). I think they're one of the coolest looking lizards on the planet, but after learning their plight, I'm more than happy to appreciate them from afar.

But I digress...

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Maybe it’s because I’ve never seen my guys as pets and more of my Lord and Savior but that’s just me.

Umm... Is there a little statue of you in their enclosure(s)?

 

[JoXie411]

Umm... Is there a little statue of you in their enclosure(s)?

No because I worship them I think you misinterpreted what I said