Minor chameleons

[Trace]

All of these successful reintroductions have been overseen by wildlife and scientific authorities, not by some random dude in his living room. Big difference. And why not talk money? It’s what drives this hobby.

I understand holding back specimens to ensure your colony is stable but at some point one is going to at least say they have reached a certain filial generation. Considering Furcifer minor have not been exported legally since 1995 that means the breeders should be at, at least, F3 or F4 generation. Not once has that been mentioned here or on any other site or private expert email lists over the years. Considering how certain people like to brag about their collection and accomplishments, it makes no sense.

Yes, by all accounts, the F. minor paperwork is legal and there is nothing that can be done. However what is it going to be next time? Furcifer balteatus? Chamaeleo namaquensis? Where do we draw the line? At some point we as keepers need to be questioning or opening a dialogue these wildlife authorities because otherwise nothing is going to change.

 

[biffle]

Sorry man you are wrong on this point. I have at least 2 examples of "some dude" using his personal money and time to build a captive breeding program that now is selling/donating to wildlife and scientific authorities.

Jason

All of these successful reintroductions have been overseen by wildlife and scientific authorities, not by some random dude in his living room. Big difference. And why not talk money? It’s what drives this hobby.

 

[Psychobunny]

No, Europe is subject to the same international trade laws as everyone else. CITES (Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species) is not just applied to some countries, it applies to all. Being closer to Asia where the same laws apply but enforcement is very lacking makes it easier to obtain smuggled animals than here. If the original animals were imported prior to the ban in 1995 then everything was legal about it. And just because an animal is an endangered species does not completely restrict it from import or export in all situations. See Chris' earlier post as to why. And right now CITES export documents have been issued, which means that they have shown that the parents were legitimately obtained and a captive population has been maintained since that time and not resulting from illegally smuggled stock. Otherwise CITES documents would not have been issued. There is speculation that the paper trail proving captive success may have been altered or fabricated but nothing to substantiate this and paperwork is in place that would suggest otherwise. That's where it stands as of now.

Thanks for the explaination, I get it now

So, lacking any compelling reason to suspect faked documents, on what grounds would anyone seem so sure that they were?

Is it that unheard of for people to follow the law and be honest?

If animals were imported before the ban, then they were not smuggled, and if CITES is satisfied, then what is all this fuss about??

That was a pretty long time ago, 1995, so someone has had plenty of time to study this species. If they have a population to export for US breeders to have a crack at it, that's a good thing....yes??!!

Steve has already outlined a plan. He can have breeders to agree to be monitored and report their progress, ask questions, exchange ideas.

I know F. minor is said to be confined to a fairly small area, unlike the distribution of F. pardalis, but if someone hadn't gathered them from the wild and spent time working with them,
none of us would own any now.
When I first got interested in chams, it was back in the late 1970's, and I didn't even know panther chams existed!! had never even seen a pic of one.

 

[Scoobthenoob]

No, Europe is subject to the same international trade laws as everyone else. CITES (Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species) is not just applied to some countries, it applies to all. Being closer to Asia where the same laws apply but enforcement is very lacking makes it easier to obtain smuggled animals than here. If the original animals were imported prior to the ban in 1995 then everything was legal about it. And just because an animal is an endangered species does not completely restrict it from import or export in all situations. See Chris' earlier post as to why. And right now CITES export documents have been issued, which means that they have shown that the parents were legitimately obtained and a captive population has been maintained since that time and not resulting from illegally smuggled stock. Otherwise CITES documents would not have been issued. There is speculation that the paper trail proving captive success may have been altered or fabricated but nothing to substantiate this and paperwork is in place that would suggest otherwise. That's where it stands as of now.

Whilst Europe is subject to the same international laws, some European country's are open to corruption, or just a non compliance protocol.

I do not want to get into the various "open" routes into Europe, mostly because that is pointing fingers, and also those who already know of the back doors are normally using them, and I really don't want to educate others to which back doors are better for what.

On that note, there are relaxed/corrupt border control points in the states also, however, I know in the states with out any exceptions I know of Animal welfare/Endangered species are not relaxed on any front.

I should add I do not use the back doors for the import/export of livestock endangered or otherwise.

 

[Trace]

So the F. minor are coming in under the guise of eventual reintroduction to the wild? Okaaay. Let's not say this is anymore more than it is. People want cool pets and are willing to pay the exorbitant price for them and it ultimately doesn't matter about the history and current status of the species.

BTW: I'm NOT a dude. Please don't refer to me like that.

 

[danscantle]

Sorry man you are wrong on this point. I have at least 2 examples of "some dude" using his personal money and time to build a captive breeding program that now is selling/donating to wildlife and scientific authorities.

Jason

What are your two examples? The examples you posted on the previous page are all introductions attempted with the oversight of a conservation oriented institution.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

This might make it easier for people in the United States to wrap their heads around this whole thing. Think of Africa to Europe as our Mexico/Central America is to North America. Many things come into our country from south of the border. As do many items from the African continent, find their way into the EU. Severval years back (and maybe to this day) Russian planes filled with arms would land in African countries of conflict, and with a empty plane to fly back home, one might fill the cargo hold with wildlife for the latest millionaire, and pet trade back home. Nothing like seeing a Parson's in the window of a Moscow pet shop.

Follow the money.

 

[rshewfel]

So the F. minor are coming in under the guise of eventual reintroduction to the wild? Okaaay. Let's not say this is anymore more than it is. People want cool pets and are willing to pay the exorbitant price for them and it ultimately doesn't matter about the history and current status of the species.

BTW: I'm NOT a dude. Please don't refer to me like that.

Lol. When I first got into the hobby at age 17, I thought I could possibly do some good by breeding rarer chameleons in captivity. Over the next 10 years, I had some successes, and a lot of failures. For instance, I owned at least 10 b. perarmata over the years, I never produced 1 egg. After that first 10 years, I got out of chameleons because of a divorce.

During my absence from chameleons, I realized that the only reason I let myself believe that I could do some good was the fact that it eased the guilt of keeping a wild animal in a cage.

This time around, I am no longer in overrun by denial. I am doing this because I became consumed with boredom. I am completely fascinated with chameleons and nature. This fills a void in my life that has proven otherwise almost impossible to fill. It is purely a selfish reason.

To me it is completely silly to believe, that as a hobbyist, we can save a species.

 

[rshewfel]

All of these successful reintroductions have been overseen by wildlife and scientific authorities, not by some random dude in his living room. Big difference. And why not talk money? It’s what drives this hobby.

I understand holding back specimens to ensure your colony is stable but at some point one is going to at least say they have reached a certain filial generation. Considering Furcifer minor have not been exported legally since 1995 that means the breeders should be at, at least, F3 or F4 generation. Not once has that been mentioned here or on any other site or private expert email lists over the years. Considering how certain people like to brag about their collection and accomplishments, it makes no sense.

Yes, by all accounts, the F. minor paperwork is legal and there is nothing that can be done. However what is it going to be next time? Furcifer balteatus? Chamaeleo namaquensis? Where do we draw the line? At some point we as keepers need to be questioning or opening a dialogue these wildlife authorities because otherwise nothing is going to change.

I would be more worried about how many bloodlines are coming into the states. If the gene pool is not big enough, inbreeding could just be a few years away. Maybe they can introduce some inbred, deformed mutants back into the wild.

 

[Carlton]

Yeah, that's definitely a stretch of justification I can't make. Kind of like, "They'll look prettier going extinct in my living room than in the wild." But, I'm coming to realize more and more it's just human nature and no amount of moral-brow beating is going to change that. ESPECIALLY in this hobby. Good point on the chytrid fungus work, although I assume you know I was looking more for individual species that had been over-exploited in some way and then "saved" through hobbyist captive breeding.

Yes, I understood Kent. I thought of it more as an example of the contribution a devoted group can make if they are willing to share information and effort. No one entity including the most blue-ribboned conservation agency in the world can accomplish recovery goals on its own. Think about the CA condor recovery program as an example. You could produce all the caged condors you want, and some zoo can feel accomplished if it can claim to possess one, but if the condor's environmental threats and habitat loss are not dealt with the species will never be recovered. There was a quote from some writer or poet (can't recall) who said that a condor isn't really a condor without it's mountain. A condor in a cage is gangly, rather ugly, and a sad shadow of itself. Creatures evolved as part of their wild communities. Their unique traits are only fully expressed when they live in their niches. Some people feel it is better to let them disappear if their niche is gone than hang on to doomed remnants. Sad little arks scattered across the world.

This is a great discussion that should be had in hobbyist circles. Hobbyists like anyone else can change their views about why they are interested in a species. Some hobbyists turn away from animal keeping all together if they can no longer justify it. If its genuine that should be OK. I'm sure most of us who have been at this a while still feel those twinges of guilt when we keep non-domesticated animals as part of our lives. How we choose to address the twinges is up to us.

 

[Saldarya]

Just want to be clear as this conversation touches many topics. It is not our intent to import these animals with the hope of one day reintroducing them into the wild.

Not sure where that potential notion came from, but again, that is not a goal or intent with these animals.

Thanks,

 

[nick barta]

Lol. When I first got into the hobby at age 17, I thought I could possibly do some good by breeding rarer chameleons in captivity. Over the next 10 years, I had some successes, and a lot of failures. For instance, I owned at least 10 b. perarmata over the years, I never produced 1 egg. After that first 10 years, I got out of chameleons because of a divorce.

During my absence from chameleons, I realized that the only reason I let myself believe that I could do some good was the fact that it eased the guilt of keeping a wild animal in a cage.

This time around, I am no longer in overrun by denial. I am doing this because I became consumed with boredom. I am completely fascinated with chameleons and nature. This fills a void in my life that has proven otherwise almost impossible to fill. It is purely a selfish reason.

To me it is completely silly to believe, that as a hobbyist, we can save a species.

Robert,

Great self awareness, and final statement!

Nick

 

[biffle]

I would never call you a dude, Dudes don't come from Canada . I was trying to quote you. I guess that was a fail. sorry.

I'm not saying that anyone is going to, should, or even that it's a good idea. I'd say let's leave that to the smart guys like Chris. I'm simply arguing that it is possible and it is happening with other REPTILES.

On the morals debate…
Have you noticed that this F.minor morals debate smells remarkably similar to ones from the a few years ago on C.Parsonii? Should these two species be held to a similar moral standard?

The way I see it, these are not like the “European bred” parsonii that most of us own. In this case we all actually know the breeder and have witnessed these very babies hatch and grow.

Jason

So the F. minor are coming in under the guise of eventual reintroduction to the wild? Okaaay. Let's not say this is anymore more than it is. People want cool pets and are willing to pay the exorbitant price for them and it ultimately doesn't matter about the history and current status of the species.

BTW: I'm NOT a dude. Please don't refer to me like that.

 

[Kent67]

Furcifer rhinoceratus is another small species from Madagascar that was suspended from trade in 1995. Like Furcifer minor, breeding females normally don't live more than two years.

I don't know if the eggs require a controlled diapause to hatch.
I don't know why so many females don't lay naturally and become egg-bound.
When my friends hatched them, most died and we don't know why.
I don't know if adults need to have a winter brumation period to cycle properly.
It seems no one has the answers to those questions.
I wish more was known about care and breeding of the species. It might make them popular again.
I haven't posted any photos or discussed myF. rhinoceratus before.

Surprise! I have been breeding Furcifer rhinoceratus for 10 years successfully. Does anyone believe me?

 

[biffle]

Ouch!

Before you present half of a story as the full, you should really do more homework.

You owe someone an apology.

Jason

Furcifer rhinoceratus is another small species from Madagascar that was suspended from trade in 1995. Like Furcifer minor, breeding females normally don't live more than two years.

I don't know if the eggs require a controlled diapause to hatch.
I don't know why so many females don't lay naturally and become egg-bound.
When my friends hatched them, most died and we don't know why.
I don't know if adults need to have a winter brumation period to cycle properly.
It seems no one has the answers to those questions.
I wish more was known about care and breeding of the species. It might make them popular again.
I haven't posted any photos or discussed myF. rhinoceratus before.

Surprise! I have been breeding Furcifer rhinoceratus for 10 years successfully. Does anyone believe me?

 

[pigglett79]

Furcifer rhinoceratus is another small species from Madagascar that was suspended from trade in 1995. Like Furcifer minor, breeding females normally don't live more than two years.

I don't know if the eggs require a controlled diapause to hatch.
I don't know why so many females don't lay naturally and become egg-bound.
When my friends hatched them, most died and we don't know why.
I don't know if adults need to have a winter brumation period to cycle properly.
It seems no one has the answers to those questions.
I wish more was known about care and breeding of the species. It might make them popular again.
I haven't posted any photos or discussed myF. rhinoceratus before.

Surprise! I have been breeding Furcifer rhinoceratus for 10 years successfully. Does anyone believe me?

Should be more like nearly 20 years successfully to get you from 1995 to now......seems far fetched.

 

[SMCNARY]

Since it appears that the discussion in this thread has now moved to discredit a person who has worked diligently for years to positively impact the chameleon hobby, I feel it is necessary for me to respond with some further facts.

As has been mentioned already, the CITES organization has thoroughly and completely confirmed through investigative means the fact that the animals that are coming into the US on this import can trace their lineage back to animals that were obtained legally prior to the Madagascar ban. This is the only way that the paperwork could have been obtained and this is not in question.

It has been suggested that this is impossible as Jürgen has not been working with this species this long and in fact had he been, surely he would have posted his success during this period of time.

The facts are these. Jurgen purchased this breeding group of f. minor from a breeder on 6/10/2011 who had begun the project prior to the ban. I feel comfortable in sharing a specific date because once again the investigative paperwork used by CITES states as such. In fact, the paperwork documents the original breeder’s efforts, who want to remain anonymous, from the beginning of his obtaining the original animals to once again the sale of them to Jurgen, who has since then maintained the documentation of his efforts.

So to those whose entire argument is based on the fact that Jurgen himself has not been working with them for 20 years, you are correct. He bought them in 2011 to further the effort.

I will close by saying this. This thread, and others elsewhere have gone down a winding path of illegality, morality, some financial discussion, and finally to character assassination. Every step along that path facts have been given where appropriate in this discussion to support what is being done here.

Part of me is very frustrated as it is clear that no matter what is said to those who oppose this import that they will never be satisfied, and that is fine. I could actually post the full investigative report done by CITES and the claims of falsification would remain. So truth be told, I am not sure much else can be said. We will have to agree to disagree.

That being said, I am also very excited!! When we discussed the idea of bringing these animals in we knew there would be some push back. This is always the case with something new and exciting. All we can do is ensure beyond all doubt that the animals are legal, which we have, and then ensure they get in the hands of the proper people to help ensure what we hope to be a long term Captive population of this species.

Thanks all,

Steve

 

[pigglett79]

Given that this species seems to be difficult to breed, is jurgen providing detailed care sheets and info on breeding them to the recipients so that they can continue to try to maintain the population? Are the specimens from multiple blood lines to ensure they will even be able to breed over time?

 

[SMCNARY]

Given that this species seems to be difficult to breed, is jurgen providing detailed care sheets and info on breeding them to the recipients so that they can continue to try to maintain the population? Are the specimens from multiple blood lines to ensure they will even be able to breed over time?

Yes this information is provided to the actual purchasers.
Steve

 

[SSimsswiSS]

I think a great poll question would be who here has ever/even seen CITI paper work on a animal?

Maybe only the importers get to see this info..