Minor chameleons

[SMCNARY]

I'm in the same boat as you Kevin! Not for me this time.

Carl

Carl & Kevin
I hope by bringing these in and if we can successfully breed them then they can be much more affordable and available.
That has been our goal with each and every shipment .
Most here are not even aware that we will have a shipment of Bradypodion Thamnobates in November.
We were able to sell these at a retail cost I believe that is significantly cheaper then they have been available recently.
Our goal over time is to be able to bring in rare and un common species and that with time make them more available and at a lower cost as well as ( hopefully ) reduce the pressure on wild collected animals.
Thank you
Steve

 

[rshewfel]

Carl & Kevin
I hope by bringing these in and if we can successfully breed them then they can be much more affordable and available.
That has been our goal with each and every shipment .
Most here are not even aware that we will have a shipment of Bradypodion Thamnobates in November.
We were able to sell these at a retail cost I believe that is significantly cheaper then they have been available recently.
Our goal over time is to be able to bring in rare and un common species and that with time make them more available and at a lower cost as well as ( hopefully ) reduce the pressure on wild collected animals.
Thank you
Steve

I'll chip in $200 towards Carl or Kevin getting a pair. That is all I can afford. Just need $4800 more

 

[Kent67]

I think Kent meant chameleons specifically. I'm sure Kent realizes that other species (not chameleons) have had different outcomes.

Sort of, I actually meant to say any "reptile" species that has been saved from extinction by hobbyists. The hobbyist part was in there, though.

Many species have been saved from extinction by captive breeding. Examples include:

Guam rails (bred by Division of Aquatic and Wildlife Resources and some US zoos)
black-footed ferrets (bred by USF&W)
California condors (Bred at San Diego Zoo and Los Angeles Zoo)
Przewalski’s horses (saved by zoos coordinated by Foundation for the Preservation and Protection of the Przewalski's horse)
scimitar-horned oryx (hasn't been seen in the wild in 15 years. Lives "wild" in fenced areas. I don't think I'd call this hobbyist effort, either)
Partula snails (scientists studying the Genus and the Zoological Society of London)
Spix’s macaws (conservation groups organized under the Brazilian government)



From "Herpetoculture and Conservation":
" It seems too many herpetoculturists use conservation to promote their own interests. As Dodd (1987) wrote: "Too many propagation programs are operated under the guise of 'conservation.' When this really means to supply individuals with a sufficient number of pets, this is not conservation but recreational use of wildlife." That doesn't mean that herpetoculturists cannot be conservationists, but private herpetoculture is not (or should not be) a conservation tool. Herpetoculturists can promote conservation in many ways, including:

Stop collecting wild animals and purchase only captive born animals. By purchasing only captive born animals you will not be directly supporting the collection of wild animals. In addition, you'll generally get healthier animals. All in all, captive born animals are a much better buy.

Encourage others to buy captive born animals. As herpetoculturists, we are often asked to talk to groups about amphibians and reptiles. Invariably, someone is interested in getting a herp as a pet and asks where they can get one. We should tell the group that we only keep captive born animals. This may seem odd, but remember the people you are talking to can't tell if the animal you are holding is wild caught. If the person does get a captive born animal they are more likely to have a good experience and want to continue keeping herps.

Obey local, state, and federal laws when both keeping (and collecting, if you must) herps. Unfortunately, many of our headaches today are caused by a few money hungry herpers who think they are above the law. The result of their greedy actions are stricter laws which ultimately encourage more people to break the law (and the cycle continues).

If you must collect, do it in an environmentally safe manner. First of all, you should question why you must collect these animals. Are your reasons valid? When collecting, replace, to the best of your ability, everything you move.

Keep quite about good herpin' sites. All too often herpetologists tell their friends about good herpin' sites, who tell their friends, who tell their friends...and eventually everyone knows about the area. Soon the area becomes a not-so-good herpin' area.

Do not release animals that have been in captivity, including newborns. The risk of introducing disease or detrimental genetic components is too high. This includes animals that were kept for a couple of months. It would be better to donate the animal to a museum (with collection data) than release it. Only consider releasing an animal that has been kept for less than two weeks and has been maintained in quarantine.

Finally, if you really want to contribute to conservation efforts, donate a portion of your herpetoculture profits to an established conservation group that has herpetological projects. What better way to justify our hobby?

http://www.anapsid.org/conserv.html

Just think about what you guys are REALLY doing. When have any other species you've imported generated this much division and heated feelings? Is it really worth it to make more pets?

 

[Trace]

Great post Kent!

 

[Olimpia]

They are a threatened species but these individuals are captive bred, so whether they are sold to keepers here or in Europe it doesn't quite make a difference, as they certainly aren't going back to Madagascar. So I don't see what the ethical issue of importing them is, as cb European aninals. Their contribution to their wild population is already zero as it is.

 

[Trace]

Why are they not being sold in Europe? If the demand for this species is so high, one would think they would have no problem being sold closer to home. Is there a glut of Furcifer minor in the European market?

It boils down to money. Everyone involved with this order stands to make a lot more by wholesaling the lot to the US.

 

[biffle]

An example of a captive breeding reptiles, lizards. reintroduced.

http://www.arc-trust.org/about-us/What-we-do/saving-species/Sand-lizard-breeding-reintroduction

 

[Action Jackson]

Great posts Trace.

 

[Kent67]

So I don't see what the ethical issue of importing them is, as cb European aninals. Their contribution to their wild population is already zero as it is.

From CITES: http://www.cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/com/sc/65/Inf/E-SC65-Inf-04.pdf

9.The breeding and subsequent sale of progeny from successfully smuggled animals serves as a
financial incentive to poach and smuggle additional specimens;

10. The occasional or sporadic captive breeding of
illegally acquired endangered species, such as
The Bahamas rock iguanas (and certainly many other species), only increases consumer demand
among high-end collectors and commercial dealers and breeders. Such spikes in demand cannot be
met solely by breeders, and the only other source of animals to meet the demand are illegally
harvested and smuggled wild animals....

7. The willingness of the people in the countries of the EU to pose alongside captive Bahamian
Rock iguanas in pictures on the internet possibly identifying their facilities, demonstrates that they
feel that they can operate with impunity as there is no applicable law to stop such activities, nor
does there appear to be the desire to develop a legal mechanism to counter the commercialization of
both smuggled iguanas and their offspring;

2. A brief review of Internet offers of sale of
rock iguanas from The Bahamas suggests that the
primary recipients of these smuggled animals may
be in certain countries of the European Union....

I found a pricelist from Hamm 2007 with smuggled wild caught Furcifer minor for €190. What a price jump!

 

[Kent67]

An example of a captive breeding reptiles, lizards. reintroduced.

http://www.arc-trust.org/about-us/What-we-do/saving-species/Sand-lizard-breeding-reintroduction

I don't have time to look through their whole site but I'm not seeing how a national charity group qualifies as "hobbyists" nor where they saved a species from extinction, but they are reptiles.

 

[Saldarya]

I am confused as to why this has turned towards a financial discussion? The conversation thus far has been good and informative from both sides of the discussion in regards to the moral and legal aspects of this import and it is a worthy conversation to have.

The jump to the financial aspect is once again based off of opinion, supposition, and conjecture. Only three people have any clue as to the actual financial details and I can assure that not everybody is make a ton of money off of this.

In addition, I am not sure what a 7 year old price list of confessed illegal animals has in regards to the merits of this conversation. Not exactly apples to apples.

Again, this thread is actually a good and informative conversation in regards to a controversial topic, can we keep it on that track?

 

[Kent67]

For clarification, I posted about the smuggled F. minor in 2007 to show exactly how EASY it would be to add smuggled animals into a breeding program there. There is a reason these animals are still available as captive bred in Europe and it's because there has always been access to illegal animals after the 1995 suspension. The same has not been true in the US, hence, as I asked before, and was ignored, there aren't any of those species still represented in collections here. I was breeding Madagascar chameleons for 4 years prior to the trade suspension. In the early 90's F. minor was considered one of the rarest chameleons in Madagascar and there were very few ever available prior to the suspension. If you believe that the reason these animals are available from Europe and not here is simply because they're better breeders and NOT using any smuggled animals.... If it seems too good to be true, that's probably because it is.

 

[Carlton]

Even though their captive-produced individuals may never be released back to their wild habitat,
Even though captive-produced individuals may not be genetically appropriate to release because of unknown locales, crossbreeding or severe inline breeding,

a few ways hobbyists could benefit an at-risk species is to stumble on some specific requirements the species needs to reproduce successfully in a controlled program. Maybe all it would do is shorten the learning curve, tease out some nutritional or health issues the species happens to be prone to, or identify a disease and treatment for it.

Then there's the aspect of keeping humans interested. Of course there's the bad aspect of interest...creating an market and incentive to smuggle, but there's also the good aspect of raising concern and respect for declining places and their residents.

I know some people have no qualms about using this to justify keeping rare species in captive hands, but occasionally we get lucky. I used to keep Malaysian leaf frogs notorious for not reproducing successfully in captivity. There had been about 3 successful attempts worldwide. Together with a couple other devoted hobbyists we were lucky enough to identify a major hormonal trigger for females and started proving it out. It also meant realizing that I didn't live in a region where my little breeding group was likely to succeed. Hard as it was, I sent my frogs to a zoo program that might have more luck. Worldwide spread of chytrid fungal infections has overwhelmed the work, but we did make progress! And, by the way, hobbyists contributed to a workable treatment for chytrid infections in captive frogs too.

 

[Kent67]

I know some people have no qualms about using this to justify keeping rare species in captive hands, but occasionally we get lucky.

Yeah, that's definitely a stretch of justification I can't make. Kind of like, "They'll look prettier going extinct in my living room than in the wild." But, I'm coming to realize more and more it's just human nature and no amount of moral-brow beating is going to change that. ESPECIALLY in this hobby. Good point on the chytrid fungus work, although I assume you know I was looking more for individual species that had been over-exploited in some way and then "saved" through hobbyist captive breeding.

Anyways, I've said my piece. I can't change anyone's morals.

 

[Scoobthenoob]

Human nature?

Yeah, that's definitely a stretch of justification I can't make. Kind of like, "They'll look prettier going extinct in my living room than in the wild." But, I'm coming to realize more and more it's just human nature and no amount of moral-brow beating is going to change that. ESPECIALLY in this hobby. Good point on the chytrid fungus work, although I assume you know I was looking more for individual species that had been over-exploited in some way and then "saved" through hobbyist captive breeding.

Anyways, I've said my piece. I can't change anyone's morals.

You think somehow we are above nature?
You suggest we are not also a product of it?

Some times to prevent extinction captivity becomes the most viable solution but this is strictly on a case by case scenario, under a similar guise we could argue how keeping any wild animal captive has any moral justification.

I am now off to fully study this branch of the family, as my argument is meant as a broad stroke on a very specific leaf.

My questions are more rhetorical response, as to say damned if we do something damned if we do nothing, sometimes perhaps we must be resolved to letting nature take its own course, and by that also what we as humans do.

 

[Kent67]

Really? Can't I just say I give up? Not sure where you could've thought that I believe humans are above nature although doing whatever we want in order to gain the most power, admiration, envy, respect, etc. of others without giving the slightest care about the long-term consequences is certainly acting like it.

 

[Psychobunny]

Someone please help me understand the scenario that is being put forward:

A) endangered F. minor were smuggled out of Madagascar and received in Europe, where there are no laws.
B) a small group of breeders successfully established the species over time. The original smuggled animals no longer exist.
C) There have been no sales of F. minor to hobbyists inside Europe (demand lacking??)
D) Though the species is still on the 'red list', but many generations removed from the original parents, they are being imported to the US, which was the intension from the start.
E) With proper papers, the import to the US is perfectly legal, in spite of the fact that they are classified 'endangered', but they are proven to be CB?

Is that it, in a nutshell?

Please correct any errors and tell me how this works.

I did not know Europe had no laws regarding imports of wild endangered species, but I get the impression (and it's just my hunch) that most countries outside the US consider CITES, and every other conservation org., a PITA and simply placate them publicly for political reasons.

Every country on the African continent ranks high in political corruption, as well as Madagascar.
If there is money to be made, the wishes of the conservation groups be damned, they find a way.
I know these countries have instituted laws and policing to protect wildlife, but how effective are they really?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

No, Europe is subject to the same international trade laws as everyone else. CITES (Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species) is not just applied to some countries, it applies to all. Being closer to Asia where the same laws apply but enforcement is very lacking makes it easier to obtain smuggled animals than here. If the original animals were imported prior to the ban in 1995 then everything was legal about it. And just because an animal is an endangered species does not completely restrict it from import or export in all situations. See Chris' earlier post as to why. And right now CITES export documents have been issued, which means that they have shown that the parents were legitimately obtained and a captive population has been maintained since that time and not resulting from illegally smuggled stock. Otherwise CITES documents would not have been issued. There is speculation that the paper trail proving captive success may have been altered or fabricated but nothing to substantiate this and paperwork is in place that would suggest otherwise. That's where it stands as of now.

 

[fluxlizard]

C) There have been no sales of F. minor to hobbyists inside Europe (demand lacking??)

I don't know about this instance, but it is not unknown for serious breeders to not sell a species for several years while establishing a large self-sustaining breeding group. Rather than lack of demand, desire to build up one's own breeding group and learning how to get consistent breeding results could be the reason.

I have done this- held onto all offspring for a while until I have a large group going and then at first only sell or trade a few surplus for a generation or two. I wasn't working with unusual species, but wanted a self-sustaining population so I would not have to risk bringing disease in from outside after a point with bearded dragons. I plan to do much more of this going into the future and am working on building up a few species now.

Actually this discussion is interesting to me as I have a few shinisaurus and hope to obtain more in the future. My interest is in what sort of documentation do I need to be keeping on animals I produce and keep back generation after generation to increase my breeding stock? Do they require birth dates or how do they determine heritage over generations?

Langerwerf held back shinisaurus for many years before he began selling out a few. He was also one of the first to get them to consistently breed year after year. At around the time of his death, although he had aquired his first animals something near 20 years previous, he had finally begun selling some of his offspring out only a few years prior to his death, and at the time of his death he had built up enough breeding stock that his offspring produced in a single year could be nearly as many as some estimates of the entire wild population of this species...

So there are legitimate situations where animals might possibly survive for generations "under the radar" so to speak. I have no idea about minor chameleons though.

As far as captive breeding- I once read of a frog species where a single breeder was producing many times the entire wild population of that species in a single season. Don't remember what that was.

Axolotls are an example of a species that is nearly extinct in the wild now, but captive breeding for hobbyiest and genetics work is almost certain to carry the species forward into the future.

 

[biffle]

I guess this proves that the Europeans are superior breeders since they are already reintroducing while we deny it's even happening?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10472005
http://www.cgoecology.com/Reptiles/early-success-for-devon-smooth-snake-reintroduction.html


The captive breed Texas Horned lizard's reintroduction..
http://www.safarisamblog.com/texas-horned-lizard

although I assume you know I was looking more for individual species that had been over-exploited in some way and then "saved" through hobbyist captive breeding.