Minimal-stress hydration?

[Trace]

I would see if you can get your recheck appointment moved up if you can. The deworming medications can sometimes have negative effects on compromised animals as the parasite load dies off. That’s why I was pushing the watering so much.

You can always try a little force feeding to keep her strength up until the appointment. Most pet stores carry a product called Repta-Aid by Flukers (not to be confused with Rept-Aid) and that is a fairly good nutritional supplement. Your vet may have a better over-the-counter supplement you can buy as well. You can always squish up some insects into a liquid and give her that too. Just be careful that she doesn’t aspirate the liquid.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

 

[BocaJan]

I've been reading your chams story and just wanted to say I am here with you. You are doing a great job and look forward to you getting a nice screen cage for her. She will really love it. That window is a great place for her to be. My chams love to be by my sliders and they are all sitting looking out the windows all day long. I have room for 12 cages facing windows. Guess it gives them something to do. HA! Keep up the good work, we're rooting for you and your little girl.

 

[Trillian]

She seems to be up and down a bit today. She's been outside in the sun for a while and perked up a bit, and ate a couple of houseflies again. This afternoon she's been dozing, but on a vine at the front of the viv, rather than on the floor. She has refused hornworms for a few days after being offered them a variety of ways, but she is swallowing a few drops of water every now and again.

Trace, thank you for the Repta-aid tip, I'm calming down about the hunger strike after seeing how interested she was in the flies today. And is it horribly awful that I'm not sure I'd be able to mash bugs for her?! It seems so mean! Hopefully she isn't at that stage yet. The earliest I'll be able to get to the vet easily is Tuesday, but if she continues to scare me I'll take her tomorrow.

Jan, thank you for the kind words. I'm leaning towards a mesh cage purely because it will give her a visual barrier and she might stop trying to bluebottle against the sides. The glass viv works so well in every other way, not looking forward to entering into the humidity battle.

I hate to admit it, but I really regret getting her. She's miserable and I'm not sure she'll ever be happy in captivity. I feel horrible being responsible for maintaining her in that state.

 

[Trace]

Well I’m not going to lie to you she doesn’t look good. Her colour is off and her eyes and fat pads in her skulls are sunken. I still don’t think she is gravid. I’m not sure what the vet can do beyond getting more fluids and nutrition (via force feeding) into her. If it were me I’d be force feeding that Repta-Aid or Bug Juice with regularity until the appointment.

I’ve been keeping a long time and your story isn’t the first one I’ve seen nor, sadly, will it probably be the last. From their initial capture in Africa to finally finding a home in captivity somewhere else these delicate animals are put through the ringer. They are simply a commodity and nowhere along the line are they given any care - even the basics like food and water - for care would mean cost and that would eat into an already small profit margin. It’s sad and big reason I don’t support the wild caught trade anymore. (A blog/article is coming on this topic shortly) You did everything in your power to correct this so don’t kick yourself. Sadly most of these wild caught animals are doomed from the beginning.

I am still rooting for her though and I know what you are doing for her is the best. If the decision the humanely end her life happens, that is okay too. Keep me posted.

Cheers,
Trace

 

[Trillian]

Just realised I haven't posted one of these yet, any suggestions very welcome.

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. Probably a Senegal, female, WC so no idea of age, but she's appx 6 inches nose to vent.
How long has it been in your care? About 3 weeks
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Daily, to shower her and for outdiir sunbaths.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? Crickets, houseflies, hornworms, occasional waxworms.
What amount? 3 crickets per day, usually disappear until the last couple of days. Offering hornworms a couple of times a day, not eaten those for the last 2 days, same with waxworms. Catching a couple of houseflies a day which she loves.
What is the schedule? Offering daily.
How are you gut-loading your feeders? Hornworms on the cookie mix they came with, crickets on bug burger and kitchen scraps like peppers, carrots, mango.
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Dusting crickets with calcium daily, calcium with d3 once every two weeks.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? Home-made dripper going all day at varying rates, usually a drip every few seconds.
How often and how long to you mist? Usually at least 3x per day for 15-20 seconds.
Do you see your chameleon drinking? Only when she is showered or water dripped on her nose by syringe occasionally.
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Pics above, urates cream-coloured, poop itself getting lighter and smaller.
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites? Yes, had her first hookworm treatment last week, second dose due Thursday.
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
I got her from Craigslist, seller got her from an Expo a few months prior, tho due to her condition I doubt she would have survived that long with him.

Cage Info: Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) Glass Exo-Terra vivarium with low front vents and mesh lid.
What are the dimensions? 18x18x24
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? Repti-Sun 5.0 tube, blue-glass daylight bulb, 60w
What is your daily lighting schedule? Tube on 12 hour timer, basking light on almost all that time, tho I switch it off if she seems too hot.
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Temp at top on opposite side to basking temp is usually around 80f, basking spot up to 90f, bottom of viv around 75 usually.
Lowest overnight temp? This time of year it's rarely below 65-70f
How do you measure these temps? Rubbish disc thermometers inside viv, digital in basking spot.
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? 50-60%
How are you creating and maintaining these levels? Regular misting, the dripper and live plants.
What do you use to measure humidity? Rubbish discs and digital hygrometer.
Plants - Are you using live plants? Yes
If so, what kind? An orchid and a small potted selection of 'tropical foliage', all washed carefully.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Kitchen bay window.
Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? No fans, tho I open the windows an inch or so when it's hot. Not high traffic, but I'm in the kitchen preparing meals a few times a day.
At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? Around 6ft ish, give or take an inch or two.
Location - Where are you geographically located? Just North of NYC.

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.
She just isn't thriving, her eyes are still sunken, I can see more of her bone structure than I feel happy with and after perking up after her first hookworm treatment she's started to sleep for much of the day again. She also spends time scratching at the glass, as if looking to get out, and lots of time on the paper towel at the bottom, though she almost always perches on vines to roost.

 

[Trillian]

I saw her drink from a leaf! So thrilled. I was syringe dripping on her nose, then refilled tge dripper and moved it from the centre where the easy perches are to one corner where there is a cluster of leaves, upped the drip rate and she went straight over and licked the leaves! Can't believe I was so stupid about watering her. Think it helps that she's by a window and we have a torrential rainstorm at the moment, so all the cues are there.

 

[HolyToledo]

Drinking off the leaf is wonderful news!

You are doing great things for this little one. She probably would have been long gone in someone else's care. The worm medicine process is really tough on them. The poop appearance while going through the treatment is ugly and off and even stinky, but that is normal. What you need to worry most about is the urates and keeping them as white as possible. All the deworminng and antibiotics are hard on their kidneys so increased hydration is the key and it sounds like you are working on that.

Have you tried injecting water into her feeders? The waxies were the easiest for me to fill with whatever I needed to give Twister (pain meds, liquid Ca, etc.) but any of the soft bodied feeders work well. Dubias and crickets will hold a bit of extra water in their bellies too but not as much as the worms. If you don't have or can't get syringes you can look in fishing supplies for a thing called a worm-blower for filling bait with air and fill it with water for injecting the bugs... And by poking holes in the waxies it made it easier for Twister to digest more of them.

About the glass viv: That is what Twister preferred. I tried mesh (it is in storage) and screen (he would climb on it but would hang on the door and beg to get out) but he was very unhappy with the increased airflow and wasn't happy about breezes at all while he was sickest. With yours being WC though, she may love it. So, if the stuffiness of the glass viv seems to make her unhappy, open the doors and see what she does with that. You might be able to brace a screen up against the opening if she tries to get out?

I'm rootin' for ya.

 

[Trillian]

Thank you HT, I feel awful for her at the moment. I have major car issues and it's possible I won't get it sorted before her vet visit on Thursday, let alone sooner. I'm working on it, I have a very stern telephone voice and cast-iron reasoning, but garages are utter b4st4rds.

I've thought of a name for her at last, but I don't want to name her because she's extra bad today, I don't want to jinx her! I'm so scared for her.

 

[Trillian]

Still haven't seen her eat anything for a while, and the crickets remain unmolested, plus I haven't seen her drink today. I've opened her viv door, thank you for that suggestion. She didn't want to come out, but I brought in her hibiscus from outside and put it next to the viv and put her on it, not letting her have a little free-range time. How much common sense do they have as far as not letting go of vines or leaping out into free space and hoping for the best?

I think my main aim in letting her wander about a bit is just to try to lift her funk, get her interested in something different and exploring more.

 

[Trillian]

A couple more pics to give you an idea of her colours.

 

[FranPhilip]

My guys hate the eyedropper, but it really does work.

What i do, i just fill it up with water and just drip it on their mouth, once they start drinking just put it next to their mouth with a drop out and let them drink it. Thats the way i do it at least

 

[skittles1234]

Ok i spent the last couple hours researching everything that was said in the thread, with the info you have provided as well as the improvments on her care and suggestions from other members I am coming to a few conclusions. Plase everyone do not bash me, i just want to try and help. This is what i have done with my senegal to bring her back. hope this helps
First off I would like to say she looks to be an older gal. So in essance she is like a 45 - 50 yr old woman. They only usually live to be 5 at the most with the best care and having had no parasites. (parasites take alot off there life) Also being that she is female and probably has already laid a few infertile eggs in her life, this will lower the life span as well. So sad for our little girls
Second i would suggest if you dont already have one invest in a monsoon rainfall system (I got mine off the internet for $80 + $4 shipping, I can give you the site if you'd like it) Despite the poor reveiws on it, which mostly pretain to the timer malfuntioning, it has been working excellent for my senegal. (and if the timer malfucntions there is always digital timers you can hook it up to that work perfectly fine for $13, but as i've said i have had no problems with mine) This would take SOOO much stress off her when you have to manually take her out of her space and shower her. I place warm water directly into the system and there is a setting to leave it on until i wish to turn it off.
Thrid i haven't seen you mention water purification. Espically with you being in NY there is probably a HIGH content of chorlrine and chemicals in your water system. You can pick up a bottle of "Repti-safe water purifier" from any pet store that has rep supplies. I don't suggest using fish dechorlifiers.
Forth Wet food for crickets and any feeder is just bad for the reptile. The food goes bad less then 6 hours after placing it in the container which in turn can contaminate and kill feeders as well as containmating the feeders that are alive with bacteria. Its also not recommended because of the high fat content and animal protein found in all dog/cat food. I suggest reading sandrachameleons blogs on gutloading, she is a life savor. The better fed your feeders are the better fed your rep will be. I give mine mostly collard and turnip greens and squash and cricket crack. on occastion carrots and other assorted fruits and veggies i find on sandras blog.
Fifth I ONLY feed my gal crickets. One feeder thats it. Then once in awhile i switch it up to flies that i purchase online. They don't seem to poo well with worms. NEVER use wild caught bugs. Thats just another way to give your chammy more parasites. You can buy flies, which i like to use on occastion, offline.
Did you ever lower the watt for the heat lamp? down to a 25 watt? Thats importent too. I place mine in the far corner of one side of the cage (to be exact the front left coner.) This leaves 75% of the cage to be at a nice 75-70 degrees. In the cooler area is where i place her dripper with it dripping directly down on to a larger hibiscus leaf that acts like a semi cup that drains downward. And have you picked up a probe yet? you can get a therm and hygrometer all in one deal offline with a probe. I also recommend a temp gun which i use to check her skin throughout the day and see what she is getting up to while - basking, roaming and sleeping.
Sixth Anytime she is dark or yellow or spotted she is very upset. Anytime she is a nice green color she is fine. Sometimes my girl occastionally falls asleep at 4-5pm even if she did wake at 8am. She hunts alot and if your girl is pacing around and stressed she may fall asleep earlier too.
Seventh do you still have her in the glass viv? Becuase thats the hardest type of cage to tell temp ranges in unless you have a probe and or temp gun. And is she still near a window where she see's alot of actvity? They hate anything that moves. My girl hated the birds that nested outside. Hates when my cats or dogs walk by. Hates just about anything but crickets.
This is all the advice i have bundled into one. This is how i got my girl to bounce back, hookworms and all. I'd invest in a couple of those items i was talking about. It will make your life easier and her's as well. And if you need any cheap but safe cage ideas i can help ya on that one too. Good luck and keep me updated.

 

[skittles1234]

Almost forgot a couple of things as well.
When i said that i give "my gal crickets only" i mean not just girl crickets because thats the way it came out in my head. I got a bit of a country accent.
And as well i meant to tell you that the younger crickets (small to medium) are alot better because the exoskeleton is much thinner then on the adults.
And i never mentioned supplementation. I use cal without D3 about 3 times a week and Cal with D3 every six weeks as i was told here on the forum to do. And i give a herptivite supp every 2 weeks since she needed the boost. Which i'm now slowing down on too about every 3-4 weeks. Don't over supp tho. I'd also recommend a vets opinon because they can do blood work and tell you what vitamins she's lacking. which you can help her make up with vitamins and proper gutloading. All my supps are from Rep-cal

 

[Trillian]

Thank you so so much. That was exactly what I needed to hear. Going to get my head around your recommendations. Cage ideas would be good, I'd prefer one with one glass panel, just selfishly I prefer how it looks, rather than mesh, but obviously her requirements come before my preferences. I'm leaning towards the $70 DIY Cages one, assuming I can't get the Penn Plax HD for a reasonable price.

Thank you so much, having some practical improvements have made me feel much more optimistic about making things better for her.

 

[skittles1234]

anytime and i'm praying for your little lady and wish you and her all the best!!! like i said before keep me updated. i've had my eye on this thread for almost a month now waiting for her to improve!! Senegals are strong willed for all the things they go through and for being WC, they can put up with a great deal. And most of the time with proper care they can bounce back dramatically. Like skittles!!

 

[skittles1234]

Thank you so so much. That was exactly what I needed to hear. Going to get my head around your recommendations. Cage ideas would be good, I'd prefer one with one glass panel, just selfishly I prefer how it looks, rather than mesh, but obviously her requirements come before my preferences. I'm leaning towards the $70 DIY Cages one, assuming I can't get the Penn Plax HD for a reasonable price.

Thank you so much, having some practical improvements have made me feel much more optimistic about making things better for her.

The most inexpensive and best cage idea that i ever got was when i went to publix (supermarket) here in fl and purchased a "cat play center" for $15.99. Then i went to walmart and purchased "pet safe screen" for $12 and a package of small wire ties for $2. I Then just found some old matrials from around my house, mainly from my rats old cages and made a door with hinges made of wire ties doubled up. You could however go to home depot and get a peice of acrylic plastic sheeting and make a door from that since you like the look of the glass in the front. I also use the acrylic for the bottom of the cage and drill a hole threw it for drainage. I prop this up on four bricks that i also purchase from home depot. here are the sites for the "parts" i used as well as a thread where i show how i did it. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/building-materials-plexiglass/optix-36-in-x-30-in-x-093-acrylic-sheet-122521.html http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cat+play+center+&view=detail&id=165375EC1414D5A836777660C68962A778084669&first=0&FORM=IDFRIR http://www.metroscreenworks.com/shop/bulkscreenrollspetscreening-c-88_108.html http://www.bing.com/shopping/deluxe-my-first-home-multi-floor-exta-large/p/3B8248A3D9CD3E9F9A9E?q=wire+rat+cages&lpf=0&lpq=wire%2brat%2bcages&FORM=CMSMEE
Ok and another cheap idea for caging is a bird cage. BUT it must have a vinyl coating on the wire bars. Meaning it has to look soft enough that it won't hurt your cham and painted enough to not rust. And If you go for bird cages make sure they have good access points to get to your cham, there food and contianers. Also i tend to go for white painted bars as they refelect light and not absorb it like black or colored coating does. Only problem with these cages is feeder escapes.
D.I.Y cages are the best on the internet i can find as well. but there is this other site, you have to have a facebook to get access to this site though. Maybe your daugther can help you with that, bet she has an account. here's the site http://www.facebook.com/#!/ChamErg
they are a little different and a bit larger for same amount as D.I.Y. (They are also having a raffle again soon for a free cage so deffinately join the cameo revolution lol.)
Thats about it for cages, but when you do get a mesh cage there will be a slight diffrent set up requirement. Mostly with the heat lamps. they will have to go back to a 40watt and possibly even a 60 watt depending on the size and structure of the cage you make or buy and how far the basking area reaches to the top. Any questions feel free to PM me!!! here is the thread with the cage i built - https://www.chameleonforums.com/temporary-cage-83198/

 

[Trillian]

Oi!!! I'm 32! My daughters are 6 and 7! Been on the internet since 1996!

 

[skittles1234]

Oi!!! I'm 32! My daughters are 6 and 7! Been on the internet since 1996!

I just assumed!! I'm a very bad assumer most of the time. Please do accept my appologies! I at least remembered you had a daugther, i was unsure of her or shall i say their ages. But if you still need a facebook account its very easy to create if you don't already have one. And if you don't want one i have one that i let people use off a phoney account.

 

[Trillian]

You young people... I had websites, I can code in HTML, not that anyone uses it any more... We run Linux and have a Media PC running our digital TV content... I've had a FB account for an embarrassingly long time.

Anyway, she's not doing well today, though perked up a bit when I rearranged her dripper AGAIN for maximum splatter pattern, so I think I'm going to look into getting a rainfall thingy as you suggested, which means ditching the glass viv and going for mesh.

She's due her second hookworm treatment tomorrow, but I'm taking her in today as she's really not looking good. Hopefully the vet can recommend some more things, or at least teach me how to force feed and hydrate her when necessary, without her aspirating it.

 

[Trillian]

Vet put her to sleep. Felt it was better than putting money and effort into her when she just wasn't adapting well to captivity.