OldSkoolxReasons
New Member
Ha basically the same post at basically the same time. Lol.
Mbd!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Chameleonbider
- Start date
Chameleonbider
New Member
He didn't exactly say it was bone I coulnd be their I was at school.my parents took frankie they said that it was like calcium build up or somthing like that it was crippling him because the calcium build up but yes he is surtified.
OldSkoolxReasons
New Member
It doesn't seem you even know the exact problem that is going on. If I were you, and I'll say it 100 times over, I would take him to another vet. The picture showing his legs didn't show anything related to TOO MCUH calcium, it show nearly complete lack of calcium. A chams bones should never bow or be "Z" shaped as that little guys were. Even if you think we are completely wrong take the little guy to another vet for his sake. Also it doesn't mean anything if a vet is certified for exotic herps. Most vets never see chams, I drive 3 1/2 hours to get to a cham vet because my last one gave my girlfriend, who went in my place as I work 60+ hours a week, the complete wrong medication for my panther. He diagnosed it right but just gave a horrible cocktail of medications so we stopped seeing him and found a much more experienced chameleon vet who actually keeps 5 adult chameleons of all different species. Feeding him only veggies for a month and not getting a proper diagnosis from a chameleon competent vet will only do more harm to the little guy. If you do not feel like wasting the money on another vet visit I suggest taking catherine(Pardalisgirl) up on her offer. I have gotten a panther cham from her, which was in perfect health, and have read her posts on the forum. She takes better care for her chams than 99% of the people out there. Just think about it.
Justin
Justin
Chameleonbider
New Member
His leg isn't z shapedwhere the knee is it just looks wide and idont know everything because I wasn't their. And I told youmoneys not a problem I just want to make sure that I will have enough to do what ever it takes to help him. And I don't feel comferable to just send my chameleon all the way across the state to some sranger. I feel that if I send him off he could get hurt. I'm not willing to risk it. And I probally will go see another vet it's not easy to get off work or out of school to drive 180 miles or more.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Take it to another vet!
Justin (OldSchoolxReasons) has said everything there is to say. The advise about fruits/vegetables will cause your chameleon to go down hill. Not get better. Go to a different vet.
Justin (OldSchoolxReasons) has said everything there is to say. The advise about fruits/vegetables will cause your chameleon to go down hill. Not get better. Go to a different vet.
Chameleonbider
New Member
Now that I looked at the instuction for the diet he gave us it he can eat cricket and bugs but no more than 50 % or his diet can be bugs he needs to eat fruits vegies.
This talks about the relationships between Calcium, D3 and prEformed vitamin A...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
" if we give PREFORMED A it bypasses the barriers and barges in unabated. No problem, the liver will store it. What happens when the liver is full? A single dose can fill all available space in the liver. In most animals, it takes WEEKS for the liver to get back to normal concentrations of vitamin A after being at maximum capacity once all vit A has been excluded from the diet. Humans may take 6 months! When the liver is full, the incoming retinol with the "escorts" get really pissed. Their only job in life, getting to the liver, has been blocked. They have no choice but to go on a systemic rampage. While retinol released from the liver with the binding proteins can enter cells, the retinol with the chylomicrons (escorts) becomes toxic. One of the many signs of this is HYPERcalcemia. That's right, too much calcium in the blood. Where does the calcium come from? It is mobilized from the bones."
" If you remember from the vitamin D post, excessive D3 is associated with calcium mobilization from the bones as well. Working together (A & D) the cham should look like Gary Larsons rubber chicken ranch, right? Actually, vitamin A and vitamin D are antagonistic (incompletely)to each other. While both may be at toxic levels, the effects are not as evident due to their interaction. The funny thing is, once signs of MBD show up, people often start shoveling in the calcium and D3, in an ALREADY hypercalcemic cham!"
This one might help too...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
This being said, I don't understand why the vet wants to cut down on the insect side of the diet....but then I'm not a vet and may be missing something.
What did the vet say about supplements?
http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
" if we give PREFORMED A it bypasses the barriers and barges in unabated. No problem, the liver will store it. What happens when the liver is full? A single dose can fill all available space in the liver. In most animals, it takes WEEKS for the liver to get back to normal concentrations of vitamin A after being at maximum capacity once all vit A has been excluded from the diet. Humans may take 6 months! When the liver is full, the incoming retinol with the "escorts" get really pissed. Their only job in life, getting to the liver, has been blocked. They have no choice but to go on a systemic rampage. While retinol released from the liver with the binding proteins can enter cells, the retinol with the chylomicrons (escorts) becomes toxic. One of the many signs of this is HYPERcalcemia. That's right, too much calcium in the blood. Where does the calcium come from? It is mobilized from the bones."
" If you remember from the vitamin D post, excessive D3 is associated with calcium mobilization from the bones as well. Working together (A & D) the cham should look like Gary Larsons rubber chicken ranch, right? Actually, vitamin A and vitamin D are antagonistic (incompletely)to each other. While both may be at toxic levels, the effects are not as evident due to their interaction. The funny thing is, once signs of MBD show up, people often start shoveling in the calcium and D3, in an ALREADY hypercalcemic cham!"
This one might help too...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
This being said, I don't understand why the vet wants to cut down on the insect side of the diet....but then I'm not a vet and may be missing something.
What did the vet say about supplements?
serenitystarlite
Established Member
Can junior members add pictures to a gallery? If so, you can upload pictures to your own gallery on the forums and people here can see your chameleons that way.
PardalisGirl
Avid Member
Great post Kinyongia 
Excellent post and links Kinyongia. You may not be a vet but I don't think you are missing anything!
Excellent post and links Kinyongia. You may not be a vet but I don't think you are missing anything!
chamlover
New Member
Did your vet do any bloodwork, check calcium levels, anything like that? THAT is what is going to be invaluable to the recovery of your buddy. Once you know where you stand, exactly nutrient and calcium wise, you can go from there. I live in NH and it is extremely difficult to find anyone around here with cham exp as well. Thank God i finally found one. Alot of vets say they have reptile exp but if you ask them how many CHAMELEONS they've seen, the number might be quite low. But ask BEFORE you make the appt. It will save you from wasting anymore time and money. But remember, most of the senior members and breeders on this forum have more exp than almost ANY vet out there. I certainly would take their advice much more seriously than almost any vet. That being said i recently took in a very small bearded dragon as a rescue, well actually 7 of them, but only 2 were in really bad shape. 1 has mbd so bad that he has totally lost use of his back legs and his 1 of his front legs is kinda curling. 1 thing tht the vet brought to my attention is that his age, being only 2-3 mos old, and having mbd so bad, is that it probably started in the embryo and is in his genetics. Not something i wanted to hear. But anyway he also said that he now has almost a 50/50 shot tht when a reptile comes in with calcium problems, it could be from too little OR too much calcium. So be extremely careful of the liquid calcium tht you give him. Get another vet and try to make it on a Sat am if you can. And make sure they do all the blood work as well. That's what Kinyonga was talking about. As well as x-rays, you need to know his chemistry levels. Good Luck.
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