Mbd??
- Thread starter blue300zx
- Start date
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Where do you get this information?
Can you site your resources?
-Brad
Can you site your resources?
-Brad
Jordan
New Member
I would refer to this link.
www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm
Made for iguanas but the same problems they would encounter I believe that chameleons would have too.
The goitrogens it refers to stops or greatly henders thyroid function.
The word oxcalates is a compound that can hender or stop calcium absorbtion.
I find it interesting that I see so many people recommend carrots to gut load and they do not tell how to prepare them which can greatly effect whether it is good or bad for them on a regular basis.
www.greenigsociety.org/foodchart.htm
Made for iguanas but the same problems they would encounter I believe that chameleons would have too.
The goitrogens it refers to stops or greatly henders thyroid function.
The word oxcalates is a compound that can hender or stop calcium absorbtion.
I find it interesting that I see so many people recommend carrots to gut load and they do not tell how to prepare them which can greatly effect whether it is good or bad for them on a regular basis.
Last edited:
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Jordan,
How do you prepare carrots for gutloading?
I know some vegetables release more vitamins when briefly microwaved or steamed. Is this what you are referring to?
-Brad
How do you prepare carrots for gutloading?
I know some vegetables release more vitamins when briefly microwaved or steamed. Is this what you are referring to?
-Brad
Please show me some medical evidence that confirms that "All veggies and fruit in big quantity cause MBD. By that, i mean feeding them to Veiled cham regulary, not a piece of salad per week".
My veileds have eaten lots of greens, veggies and fruit as well as insects for years and I haven't had one with a case of MBD for years either.
Are you saying that eating veggies and fruit in big quantities leads to MBD only in veiled chameleons not other "vegetarian" reptiles...and if so, why only them?
My veileds have eaten lots of greens, veggies and fruit as well as insects for years and I haven't had one with a case of MBD for years either.
Are you saying that eating veggies and fruit in big quantities leads to MBD only in veiled chameleons not other "vegetarian" reptiles...and if so, why only them?
I'm not interested in other reptiles.And this is a chameleon forum isn't it?
I'm telling you that for a veiled cham..(maybe not all the veggies/fruit, but the most of them cause MBD- in big quanitites)
A proof for that is hasek's cham that has MBD because of this...You can see it by deformed/croocked legs...
PS: (@hasek: if i insulted you, I didn't mean it..)
skeleptica
New Member
I don't think that Kinyonga meant other reptiles, he meant other chameleons, other than the veiled chameleons.
And I am kind of curious as to where you are getting this reference from as well.
And I am kind of curious as to where you are getting this reference from as well.
I'm sorry, my mistake.
I'm getting the informations from a friend...He's a herpetolog.
"Metabolic Bone Disease is an umbrella term referring to the weakening of bones due to a deficiency of certain minerals, specifically calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin d. It can be caused by either a dietary deficiency or lack of adequate exposure to sunlight".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_Bone_Disease
$$beni€€ aid..."I'm not interested in other reptiles.And this is a chameleon forum isn't it?"...yes, it is a chameleon forum, but I only mentioned other reptiles to find out if you were saying this is something specific to veileds or if you are saying its something that occurs in all/some/other vegetarian reptiles.
You said..."A proof for that is hasek's cham that has MBD because of this...You can see it by deformed/croocked legs"...I don't know who hasek is and although hasek's chameleon may have MBD how do you know it came from eating veggies/fruit?? MBD is weakened bones due to calcium/phos./D3 imbalance (and acutally, vitamin A plays a part too). If it ate insects that were not gutloaded properly and/or not dusted with calcium that could have led to the MBD. If it didn't get any exposure to sunlight or UVB (without glass or plastic between the light and the chameleon) or any D3 supplement it could have led to MBD. If the chameleon suffered from kidney disease, it could have led to MBD. The gutload or supplements could contain things that threw the chameleon's system out of balance. There are numerous reasons that a chameleon gets MBD.
Even if hasek fed the chameleon only veggies/fruit you still could not say for sure that the chameleon didn't develop the MBD due to some other reason. You would need confirmation.
In over 12 year of keeping/raising/breeding veileds, I have had very few cases of MBD in them and those cases were all caused by my lack on inexperience when I first started keeping them. I also gutload with veggies and greens.
You said..."PS: (@hasek: if i insulted you, I didn't mean it..)"...no offense taken.
BTW...sorry Hasek, that your chameleon had MBD.
skeleptica...thanks, but sorry...I did mean other reptiles since the veiled is the only one known to eat a lot of "vegetation" and for the reason (way) above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_Bone_Disease
$$beni€€ aid..."I'm not interested in other reptiles.And this is a chameleon forum isn't it?"...yes, it is a chameleon forum, but I only mentioned other reptiles to find out if you were saying this is something specific to veileds or if you are saying its something that occurs in all/some/other vegetarian reptiles.
You said..."A proof for that is hasek's cham that has MBD because of this...You can see it by deformed/croocked legs"...I don't know who hasek is and although hasek's chameleon may have MBD how do you know it came from eating veggies/fruit?? MBD is weakened bones due to calcium/phos./D3 imbalance (and acutally, vitamin A plays a part too). If it ate insects that were not gutloaded properly and/or not dusted with calcium that could have led to the MBD. If it didn't get any exposure to sunlight or UVB (without glass or plastic between the light and the chameleon) or any D3 supplement it could have led to MBD. If the chameleon suffered from kidney disease, it could have led to MBD. The gutload or supplements could contain things that threw the chameleon's system out of balance. There are numerous reasons that a chameleon gets MBD.
Even if hasek fed the chameleon only veggies/fruit you still could not say for sure that the chameleon didn't develop the MBD due to some other reason. You would need confirmation.
In over 12 year of keeping/raising/breeding veileds, I have had very few cases of MBD in them and those cases were all caused by my lack on inexperience when I first started keeping them. I also gutload with veggies and greens.
You said..."PS: (@hasek: if i insulted you, I didn't mean it..)"...no offense taken.
BTW...sorry Hasek, that your chameleon had MBD.
skeleptica...thanks, but sorry...I did mean other reptiles since the veiled is the only one known to eat a lot of "vegetation" and for the reason (way) above.
Kian
New Member
Actually I think it is very sad what you do, you take ones claim and you generalize it, not to prove or give any answer but just to put a doubt on it.
It is sad, that you after 12 years of cham keeping you do not know anything on oxalic acid in fruits and veggies.
I think beni it is quite right some fruits and vegetable contain oxalic acid which bounds to calcium and forms a insoluble salt called calcium oxalate, when calcium oxalate forms it makes the calcium of no use for the animal which is connected with many blood and kidney diseases in humans and animals, some vegetable containing oxalic acid are not healthy even for humans if eaten uncooked (oxalic acid also makes the blood to thin, makes the blood unable to coagulate), in fact oxalic acid is neutralized only when cooked.
for long time Hasek disregard our warnings on proper cham feeding, bcoz of inproper diet his cham suffered from MBD and havy dehidration.
p.s: I found this answer in a book for the 1st year of veterinary college.
It is sad, that you after 12 years of cham keeping you do not know anything on oxalic acid in fruits and veggies.
I think beni it is quite right some fruits and vegetable contain oxalic acid which bounds to calcium and forms a insoluble salt called calcium oxalate, when calcium oxalate forms it makes the calcium of no use for the animal which is connected with many blood and kidney diseases in humans and animals, some vegetable containing oxalic acid are not healthy even for humans if eaten uncooked (oxalic acid also makes the blood to thin, makes the blood unable to coagulate), in fact oxalic acid is neutralized only when cooked.
for long time Hasek disregard our warnings on proper cham feeding, bcoz of inproper diet his cham suffered from MBD and havy dehidration.
p.s: I found this answer in a book for the 1st year of veterinary college.
$$beni€€ generalized by saying..."Feeding too much fruit and vegetables to you Veiled cham. can cause MBD."...then more specifically said..."some vegetables and fruit "wash away" or restrict the absorbtion of calcuim" but you are my case saying that I generalize?? I commented on what was said because I could find no proof that $$beni€€'s comment about too much fruit and veggies causing MBD had validity. I had no problem with it being said that some can contribute to calcium loss.
You said..."It is sad, that you after 12 years of cham keeping you do not know anything on oxalic acid in fruits and veggies"...(now, there's a generalization for you!..."don't know anything") I have no doubt that some things with high oxalates do bind calcium. If you are saying what I'm doing with/for my chameleons is wrong, please explain how the female veileds live to be over 6 years old and the males even older, reproduce healthy babies, and the babies grow into heathy adults that also live that long?
You said..."bcoz of inproper diet his cham suffered from MBD and havy dehidration"...but $$beni€€ said..."A proof for that is hasek's cham that has MBD because of this...You can see it by deformed/croocked legs." ("this" referred to the chameleon eating veggies and fruit in big quanitites....I'd like to read the thread about Hasek's chameleon.
You said..."It is sad, that you after 12 years of cham keeping you do not know anything on oxalic acid in fruits and veggies"...(now, there's a generalization for you!..."don't know anything") I have no doubt that some things with high oxalates do bind calcium. If you are saying what I'm doing with/for my chameleons is wrong, please explain how the female veileds live to be over 6 years old and the males even older, reproduce healthy babies, and the babies grow into heathy adults that also live that long?
You said..."bcoz of inproper diet his cham suffered from MBD and havy dehidration"...but $$beni€€ said..."A proof for that is hasek's cham that has MBD because of this...You can see it by deformed/croocked legs." ("this" referred to the chameleon eating veggies and fruit in big quanitites....I'd like to read the thread about Hasek's chameleon.
Kian
New Member
haseks thread was not on this forum but on a Slovenian forum, from which he removed us (7 experienced cham keepers) after we advice him of improper cham keeping.
you could give a constructive replay if you understood benis thread, after all most of us are not here to prove some empirical or language matters, but regarding cham metters.
you could give a constructive replay if you understood benis thread, after all most of us are not here to prove some empirical or language matters, but regarding cham metters.
Jordan
New Member
At the moment, just a picture of my cham.
If anyone else thinks he's got MBD, please let me know.
I do not see any signs of MBD. He has some unique or at least I think unique colorations. Pretty guy, looks healthy, and he has got some muscles. I am guessing he is a sub adult. How old is he?
Kian
New Member
when hasek got his first chameleon, he was feeding him solely on veggies, after intensive warning, he change the diet and and removed 7 cham keepers from his forum. the coloration of this chameleon is because of dehidration as we already said to you.
hasek you did a lot of damage to many cham keepers in slovenia, you removed from your forum 7 of very experianced cham keepers, just bcoz we advice you on cham diet. you came on this forum with your obsession to prove us wrong, all your few post are just about searchin fouls on me personaly and prove me wrong, dont you have other thinks in life instead of following us from forum to forum?
hasek you did a lot of damage to many cham keepers in slovenia, you removed from your forum 7 of very experianced cham keepers, just bcoz we advice you on cham diet. you came on this forum with your obsession to prove us wrong, all your few post are just about searchin fouls on me personaly and prove me wrong, dont you have other thinks in life instead of following us from forum to forum?
Kian
New Member
yes he had MBD for a long time as i follow the post on the forum, main cause was inproper feeding.
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