MBD? Mouth rot?

summerseeking

Avid Member
Ok..so don't tell the vet I said this :)

When I had to medicate chams in the past, I had a super easy method. Draw meds in a syringe with a needle, and then changing needle obviously, inject it into a small bug. You want to make sure the cham is hungry, and he or she will eat bug and all. This means feeding the cham every day for the course of treatment which is another reason for one small bug.

For naysayers..I know..there is a chance a tad of the med could come out when cham squishes the bug..that is why I say a small bug that is taken virtually whole. There is also a chance that if cham tastes the med, he/she will be put off that particular feeder. I never had that happen fortunately. Still doesn't hurt to feed a cricket one day, silk the next, then dubia, etc.

I assume she is 11 grams? Otherwise she is nearly 3/4 of a pound? I ask because based on that and what type of med would determine how large the dose is. This would not work with say a big dose of clavamox, but with Baytril the doses are small.
Thanks for sharing...we joked about trying to inject the meds into a hornworm. One of our dogs has diabetes so we have plenty of needles around. I think she is starting to feel better because she is being fisty. Both doses were super easy today. She bit the syringe. I'm hoping she keeps doing this for the whole process.
 

dinomom

Avid Member
Thanks for sharing...we joked about trying to inject the meds into a hornworm. One of our dogs has diabetes so we have plenty of needles around. I think she is starting to feel better because she is being fisty. Both doses were super easy today. She bit the syringe. I'm hoping she keeps doing this for the whole process.
Well it can be done! With them and silks they will mush in unless you have a sharp needle. I hate to do it...
 

summerseeking

Avid Member
Just want to point out a few things.... Glad your getting her treatment. IME most breeders are not going to take any liability for what they send you. Most will say it happened in your care regardless.


Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - Panther Cham, Girl, DOH 4/18, she has been with me since 8/3
  • Handling - 3 times since she has been with me
  • Feeding - Mostly dubias everyday, about 6 a day, gut loaded with a dry mix that's dehydrated greens of all kinds.. Really want to add some diversity to her food... Dubias have a higher uric acid level so if that is all your feeding she has to process more uric acid out of her body. Also for being so young at almost 5 months old this is not much food each day.
  • Supplements - Repti-cal brand, calcium every day, d3 twice a month, multi-vitamin twice a month, outside time about 30 mins a week. What multivitamin are you using?
  • Watering - Automatic misting, 30 mins before and after light turn on and off, another spray at 2 am for one minute before the fogger runs. the fogger runs from 2:01 am - 6 am... How long are your misting sessions and are you providing a dripper during the day?
  • Fecal Description - from what I have seen her poops are small with a white urate
  • History - She came from a reputable breeder, I'm really confused about whats happening

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Screen, 2x2x5
  • Lighting - linear arcadia 6%, 24", heat lamp.. What is your distance to basking branch from the bottom of the fixture?
  • Temperature - Hot spot 83, lower temps low 70... Too hot at basking. This is going to speed up her metabolism making her more hungry. You want to reduce this back to 78-80 max. I am assuming when you do breed her your wanting smaller clutches, correct?
  • Humidity - 80%+ at night, 50-60% during the day What are your night time temps?
  • Plants -All live, ivy, hibiscus, palm, a few others, all cham safe
  • Placement - In a guest room, low traffic,
  • Location - the bay area California
Hi Beman, thank you for your reply. I didn't expect them to at. I've been debating if I should mention it or not. She asked me to keep her posted but idk.

Really want to add some diversity to her food... Dubias have a higher uric acid level so if that is all your feeding she has to process more uric acid out of her body. Also for being so young at almost 5 months old this is not much food each day. So I give her about 15 a day but she has only been eating about 5-6 of them. I've tried to give her BSF, wax worms, silkworms, and hornworms and she hasn't eaten any of them from what I can tell. I give her red runners and dubia but the red runners are so good at getting away it's hard to know if she is actually eating them or if they just got out. I also give her fruit flies out os desperation sometimes 😩😅

What multivitamin are you using? I use sticky tongue farms outdoor formula (no d3)

How long are your misting sessions and are you providing a dripper during the day? 8:30pm 5mins, 1am 1min, fog 1am - 6am if the temps are right, 7:30am 2mins. I don't run a dripper. so far my guys have white urates without it. I do have a home made dripper that can run if they seem to need it.

What is your distance to basking branch from the bottom of the fixture? I'm not sure the distance but I have a solar meter. I used those readings to set the distance. Her reading are 2.4. She also has an alternative basking branch that she can use that goes up to 3

Too hot at basking. This is going to speed up her metabolism making her more hungry. You want to reduce this back to 78-80 max. I am assuming when you do breed her your wanting smaller clutches, correct? Following Cham Academy, I have been keeping my girls between 80-85. Their enclosure is 5' tall so they have lots of room to get out of the heat too. I do want smaller clutches but as it stands right now she isn't eating enough and is underweight. Working with my vet we are weighing her every week, trying to get her to eat more, to increase her weight.

What are your nighttime temps? it depends. 70-66f. I've been running the AC at night to help but its been tough to get it down lower. We are in our hot months here in the bay area.
 

summerseeking

Avid Member
I'm not a vet ...just speaking from experience and what I have learned along the way...
Generally mouth infections involve the bacteria pseudomonas which is opportunistic and if not cleaned out just comes back. Also, chameleon pus is like cottage cheese and the antibiotics don't penetrate it to kill it. Because of both things, it's usually recommended that it be cleaned out and flushed so it won't be as likely to return.

https://chameleonacademy.com/chameleon-medical-stomatitis-mouth-rot/

https://www.madcham.de/en/maulfaeule/
That makes a lot of sense.
 

ERKleRose

Chameleon Enthusiast
What multivitamin are you using? I use sticky tongue farms outdoor formula (no d3)
So that's basically a calcium without D3. You can use that and gutload with Miner-All as your only supplements and gutload, it is not a multivitamin (the Vit-All gutload is). Or you could take out your D3 supplement and only use Repashy Calcium Plus LoD as your multivitamin and D3 (once every two weeks), with calcium without D3 at all other feedings (Zoo Med Reptivite With D3 is another option for that schedule). Or you could replace the Miner-All with Zoo Med Reptivite Without D3
 

Beman

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi Beman, thank you for your reply. I didn't expect them to at. I've been debating if I should mention it or not. She asked me to keep her posted but idk.

Really want to add some diversity to her food... Dubias have a higher uric acid level so if that is all your feeding she has to process more uric acid out of her body. Also for being so young at almost 5 months old this is not much food each day. So I give her about 15 a day but she has only been eating about 5-6 of them. I've tried to give her BSF, wax worms, silkworms, and hornworms and she hasn't eaten any of them from what I can tell. I give her red runners and dubia but the red runners are so good at getting away it's hard to know if she is actually eating them or if they just got out. I also give her fruit flies out os desperation sometimes 😩😅

What multivitamin are you using? I use sticky tongue farms outdoor formula (no d3)

How long are your misting sessions and are you providing a dripper during the day? 8:30pm 5mins, 1am 1min, fog 1am - 6am if the temps are right, 7:30am 2mins. I don't run a dripper. so far my guys have white urates without it. I do have a home made dripper that can run if they seem to need it.

What is your distance to basking branch from the bottom of the fixture? I'm not sure the distance but I have a solar meter. I used those readings to set the distance. Her reading are 2.4. She also has an alternative basking branch that she can use that goes up to 3

Too hot at basking. This is going to speed up her metabolism making her more hungry. You want to reduce this back to 78-80 max. I am assuming when you do breed her your wanting smaller clutches, correct? Following Cham Academy, I have been keeping my girls between 80-85. Their enclosure is 5' tall so they have lots of room to get out of the heat too. I do want smaller clutches but as it stands right now she isn't eating enough and is underweight. Working with my vet we are weighing her every week, trying to get her to eat more, to increase her weight.

What are your nighttime temps? it depends. 70-66f. I've been running the AC at night to help but its been tough to get it down lower. We are in our hot months here in the bay area.
So the cham academy runs temp ranges on their care images as a basic guide. One of those can not make all the breeders happy thing so he does a range. The issue with keeping her hotter is your increasing her metabolism. My understanding was that you were planning on breeding her. Having smaller easily clutches will be better for her and easier for your in the beginning as well. So hotter basking increased metabolism and she is going to want a ton more food than she should have at maturity... So if you drop back temps with the reduced food intake she will not only be more content because she wont be wanting to eat your arm but her clutches will be smaller and more manageable.

With the mouth infection it does not surprise me that she is not eating much. If her appetite does not increase once this heals then get a fecal done.

With feeding hornworms make sure they are size appropriate they have horrible mandibles. A bite can often lead to mouth rot issues.

Per the dripper. Just make sure as they all are maturing that they are not holding fecal and urates. Even as adults if they are not hydrated they can hold them in longer. Not what you want to happen. Should still be every 3-4 days as an adult.
 

summerseeking

Avid Member
So that's basically a calcium without D3. You can use that and gutload with Miner-All as your only supplements and gutload, it is not a multivitamin (the Vit-All gutload is). Or you could take out your D3 supplement and only use Repashy Calcium Plus LoD as your multivitamin and D3 (once every two weeks), with calcium without D3 at all other feedings (Zoo Med Reptivite With D3 is another option for that schedule). Or you could replace the Miner-All with Zoo Med Reptivite Without D3
Whoa! I didn't realize that. It was recommended to me as a good multivitamin to get. I also have Rep-Cal Herptivite that I have started using yet. I got it as my backup multivitamin, just in the case, the other one sucked. I'll switch.
 

summerseeking

Avid Member
So the cham academy runs temp ranges on their care images as a basic guide. One of those can not make all the breeders happy thing so he does a range. The issue with keeping her hotter is your increasing her metabolism. My understanding was that you were planning on breeding her. Having smaller easily clutches will be better for her and easier for your in the beginning as well. So hotter basking increased metabolism and she is going to want a ton more food than she should have at maturity... So if you drop back temps with the reduced food intake she will not only be more content because she wont be wanting to eat your arm but her clutches will be smaller and more manageable.

With the mouth infection it does not surprise me that she is not eating much. If her appetite does not increase once this heals then get a fecal done.

With feeding hornworms make sure they are size appropriate they have horrible mandibles. A bite can often lead to mouth rot issues.

Per the dripper. Just make sure as they all are maturing that they are not holding fecal and urates. Even as adults if they are not hydrated they can hold them in longer. Not what you want to happen. Should still be every 3-4 days as an adult.
Awesome! Thank you for the feedback. That makes perfect sense with the basking temps. I'll cut them back a bit. There are so many opinions on what's best temps-wise. I've chatted with breeders that swear by temps in the high 80s to the range you are suggesting. I added the dripper after your reply, figured it wouldn't hurt. Her casque always looks good but it looked really happy today.

I designed a new feeder that I'm hoping to have available for purchase soon. I'm 3D printing the stage 2 prototypes tomorrow, it increased feeding consistency for my chams I tested the stage one prototype with, I'm hoping it will help her be more attracted to her food, and different varieties of foods. We will see. Fingers crossed.
 

Snuits

Chameleon Enthusiast
Awesome! Thank you for the feedback. That makes perfect sense with the basking temps. I'll cut them back a bit. There are so many opinions on what's best temps-wise. I've chatted with breeders that swear by temps in the high 80s to the range you are suggesting. I added the dripper after your reply, figured it wouldn't hurt. Her casque always looks good but it looked really happy today.

I designed a new feeder that I'm hoping to have available for purchase soon. I'm 3D printing the stage 2 prototypes tomorrow, it increased feeding consistency for my chams I tested the stage one prototype with, I'm hoping it will help her be more attracted to her food, and different varieties of foods. We will see. Fingers crossed.
Keep me posted with that feeder please! That is so cool you never seize to amaze me! Lol. I wanna buy 1! Lol
 

summerseeking

Avid Member
Hi Y'all, stopping in with an update. We finished the 14day round of antibiotics. Iba is eating better with is a relief and she is starting to gain weight slowly but surely and about a gram a week right now. Any feedback on how quickly she should be putting on weight? That way I can have a comparison.
 

Snuits

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi Y'all, stopping in with an update. We finished the 14day round of antibiotics. Iba is eating better with is a relief and she is starting to gain weight slowly but surely and about a gram a week right now. Any feedback on how quickly she should be putting on weight? That way I can have a comparison.
Yaaaaaay. So happy for you both! ♡
Omg I can't wait to see the feeder. Are you gonna sell them ? Lol
 
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summerseeking

Avid Member
Lol aw! You're website is so nice! The power of ADHD. I'm super happy for you. & wish you all the success. I WILL be buying it & supporting you & your paw paw.
Best of luck girl! ♡
Even though we only know each other in this digital space, your positivity radiates to my non-digital life! Thank you for your kindness and low-key pep talks lol. I really appreciate it.
 

Snuits

Chameleon Enthusiast
Even though we only know each other in this digital space, your positivity radiates to my non-digital life! Thank you for your kindness and low-key pep talks lol. I really appreciate it.
Aw! Thank you so much. & you're so welcome. Hahaha ♡
 
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