Mbd help

panthercross

New Member
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Panther cross ambilobe nosy bee, 1 year old I had since 3 months
Handling- maybe twice a week tops
Feeding - Crickets, mealworms, butterworms, silkworms, wax worms not many, just started with superworms. Just started feeding every other day, problem one I gut loaded crickets with store bought gutload with some carrots and lettuce, now I feed just fresh lettuce carrots, celery, apples banana, tomatoes, dried oats.
Supplements - problem 2 I recently found out I was giving him the wrong supps. I was dusting 2-3 times a week with the calcium with d3, now I have just calcium with no d3 and I dust 3 times a week. Multivites was 2 times a month
Watering - I have a habba mister set for 30 sec every 3 hrs and mist one to two times a day by hand. I see him drink alot
Fecal Description - normal white end, tiny tiny hits of yellow and poop is brown, never been tested for anything
History- bought from screameleons

Cage Info:
Cage Type - DIY cage 2x2x4 bought on website, all screen
Lighting - 12hrs on 12hrs off. I have 2 18 inch reptisun 5.0 and 100 watt blue bulb zoo med. I did use a reptglo for a while not sure if that caused any damage. Branches are 8-10 inches from the top
Temperature - temp at the bottom is around 63-65, basking is 85. I use a digital thermometer knowing it's not the most accurate
Humidity - average is around 65% winter it's a little dryer. I have a barometer in the middle of the cage and do have one big live plant in there
Plants - I have one umbrella tree plant
Placement- in the dinin room, I'm not sure what is considered high traffic but only 2 people live here
Location - pa

Current Problem - my Cham has a few problems and I think he might have mbd. Is there any cure for mbd? My Cham doesnt shoot his tongue out all the way his colors are very dull, he has bad aim. I notice in one eye when he blinks his eye goes forward towards his nose. Sometimes after he shoots his tongue out when it is back in his body he shakes up and down for a second like he had a problem getting it back in place. I want to catch any problems early please help



Pictures are helpful
 

Thompson

Avid Member
Yea it looks like you've pretty much corrected most of your husnandry, although I'd switch the asking bulb with a normal 60 watt house bulb so the basking temp will be 85-90 degrees. Make sure you're dusting with calcium atleast 4x a week and give him his multivitamins and d3 twice a month each. Take him to the vet and make sure it's a good chameleon vet ( people in your area on this forum can help with that). He or she will probably prescribe liquid calcium and tell you to take your chameleon outside for as much sunlight he can get. Take him to the vet soon to help stop the mbd, it can't be reversed though. The damage that is already done is permanent but chameleons can still live healthy life if you take the steps to stop the mbd. Can you take pictures of him for us?
 

Stanly

New Member
I'm in no means a expert so take this for what it's worth.

the pics don't look like MBD to me (tho again I could be wrong). sounds more like a eye issue, I've heard some chameleons may not be able to convert beta carotene to vitamin A. what muti vitamin are you using? maybe look into a mutli with vitamin A or vitamin a stand alone (just be carefull because you can over do vitamin A)

another thing maybe damage from too much D3, might not be a bad ideal to have a vet look at him, I think they can tell if it's MBD with x-rays. then treat him from there.
 

Thompson

Avid Member
He looheadrest! But can you post better pics of the legs so we can determine if there are any joints that look deformed.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
What supplements specifically were you using and how often for each?
Herptivite has beta carotene which is the prOformed source of vitamin A which may not be able to be converted in some chameleons.

If the chameleon does have MBD..because you have been using the D3 all the time, its not necessary to take the chameleon outside for a while since you will have already been overdoing it IMHO.
 

panthercross

New Member
Sorry he looks???? I will try to get some pics but I don't think anything is wrong there. I honestly don't think he has mbd I think I gave him too much d3 and I'm not sure what the symptoms are
 

panthercross

New Member
I was using the repcal multivite and the calcium with d3. The multivite was used about twice a week and the calcium with d3 about 3 times a week. And was doing it for months. Recently I joined this forum and found out I was doing it wrong and now I'm just using the repcal without d3 3 times a week and now the d3 and multivite twice a month
 

ataraxia

Avid Member
when your weather permits some outside exposure is always great. i would get him in it as much as you can. personally he looks like he is about to shed.

if vita is a issue and you have been using herptivite. i would purchase some reptivite and use it in place of you d3 schedule.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Too much D3...
"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone. It actually mimics hyperparathyroidism. 3. Vitamin D causes calcification of bone. Excess Vitamin D causes inappropriate mineralization of organs such as the kidney or soft tissue. Excess Vit D3 and Calcium has been implicated in mineralization of large blood vessels, causing cardiac disease. 4. If we fry the kidneys with excess Vitamin D we cannot get the active form, 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol. Of course, there are many other problems that come along with fried kidneys. 5. The body will only allow so much Hydroxycholecaliferol before the conversion of Vit D3 in the liver is stopped. What happens to the excess Vitamin D3? It is stored in the liver doing no good but potentially causing problems in the future. 6. If the Calcium-binding proteins remain in the cells for weeks after the 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol is gone, why are we redosing two or three times a week?"...
http://replay.web.archive.org/20060.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
 

jessica

Avid Member
Too much D3...
"Excess Vitamin D actually causes ABSORPTION of bone. It actually mimics hyperparathyroidism. 3. Vitamin D causes calcification of bone. Excess Vitamin D causes inappropriate mineralization of organs such as the kidney or soft tissue. Excess Vit D3 and Calcium has been implicated in mineralization of large blood vessels, causing cardiac disease. 4. If we fry the kidneys with excess Vitamin D we cannot get the active form, 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol. Of course, there are many other problems that come along with fried kidneys. 5. The body will only allow so much Hydroxycholecaliferol before the conversion of Vit D3 in the liver is stopped. What happens to the excess Vitamin D3? It is stored in the liver doing no good but potentially causing problems in the future. 6. If the Calcium-binding proteins remain in the cells for weeks after the 1,25 Dihydroxycholecalciferol is gone, why are we redosing two or three times a week?"...
http://replay.web.archive.org/20060.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
Kinyonga knows her stuff, take into consderation what she has said. Maybe a trip to the vet is in order for some blood work to check your guys levels.

I did notice a few small gutload issues I would change. I would replace the tomato and banana with papaya, squash, dark greens like mustard greens and collard greens for example.

Its been said that tomato is poisionous so I just steer clear of it and as good as bananas taste they are full of sugar. I give bananas as treats to my roaches once in a while lol

Goodluck hope he feels better soon!
 

panthercross

New Member
I was using the repcal multivite and the calcium with d3. The multivite was used about twice a week and the calcium with d3 about 3 times a week. And was doing it for months. Recently I joined this forum and found out I was doing it wrong and now I'm just using the repcal without d3 3 times a week and now the d3 and multivite twice a month
Thanks for the info I was giving him too much by accident. But I have changed my dusting habits
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Thanks for the comments...I still have a lot to learn.

Bananas have a really poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus too.


Here is some information that I hope will help....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
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