MBD and electromagnetic waves?

K

kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
I've been wondering about this for a long time but can't find anyone else who can give a definite answer so I'm asking on here.....has anyone ever thought that maybe the electromagnetic waves produced from lights on the cage could be contributing to MBD in our chameleons? Is it possible that the electromagnetic waves produced by incubators could also contribute to MBD? Am I out in left field???

Part of the reason for wondering is that there are some cases of MBD where the owner has followed the dusting rules and the chameleon still gets MBD...could it be from the proximity of the lightbulbs?
 
kinyonga said:
I've been wondering about this for a long time but can't find anyone else who can give a definite answer so I'm asking on here.....has anyone ever thought that maybe the electromagnetic waves produced from lights on the cage could be contributing to MBD in our chameleons? Is it possible that the electromagnetic waves produced by incubators could also contribute to MBD? Am I out in left field???

Part of the reason for wondering is that there are some cases of MBD where the owner has followed the dusting rules and the chameleon still gets MBD...could it be from the proximity of the lightbulbs?
Click to expand...
I am definitely not anywhere in the vicinity of Vet Medicine, but, I am in the Medical Field and I don't think you are so far out in left field here. Take for instance Tanning beds.... We tell patients all the time that tanning beds are far worse on your skin versus real sunlight because of the close proximity and the force coming from the bulbs. We hear about it all the time how research has shown that too much sunlight that leads to sunburns can lead to Skin Cancer. So I think you are on to something or in the same neighborhood. I love doing research!! If you don't mind, I would like to look some stuff up and see what I can dig up. I am really intrigued by your question. Especially because of Chevy having MBD.
 
I would be glad to have you work on this! I've had a few theories I've been working on for years and can't prove because I don't have a way to do a study and can't find anyone who is interested in taking it on. Just keep me in the loop please!?!
 
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You are out in left field. There is nothing regarding electromagnetic fields that contributes to MBD.


Let's look at some other factors on what info you provided.

You are saying that despite being near the correct lighting the animals are still having issues? I have seen entire BATCHES of defective bulbs be sent out to stores. What's a defective bulb? When you use a light meter on a brand new bulb and it is putting out UV equivalent to a used 6 month old one. I had to send back a few batches in the 90's.

I only found out about the issues because owning Parson's I was paranoid. I also would check the light output of the reptile room's lights at the pet store every other month to see when they would need replacing. One day when I replaced some bulbs I checked the new lights and they didn't put out the right amount. The company took back the entire order and replaced them. It happened again a year later.

If I had not randomly checked those bulbs that first time I would have sold 12+ defective bulbs to customers not knowing it.

Check your bulbs the day you turn them on.

.....and also tanning beds are harmful for your health :)
 
That's interesting in those articles. However there have been folks complaining about cellphones for a awhile.

However if the lights were a continuous source of bone loss then multiple cham keepers would be losing them to MBD on a monthly basis. Lets not forget that even babies would not be growing under this source if it was such an issue.

I just don't buy it. It goes against the verifiable observations each of us with multiple years of experience in herp keeping can attest to: Using those lights tends to result in my animals NOT having MBD where I also know from my early years that NOT having those lights has resulted in MBD (Iguanas and Sailfin dragons) despite using proper supplements.
 
kinyonga said:
I would be glad to have you work on this! I've had a few theories I've been working on for years and can't prove because I don't have a way to do a study and can't find anyone who is interested in taking it on. Just keep me in the loop please!?!
Click to expand...
absolutely will do. If anything, we will be more schooled on bulbs:)
 
I don't think you're in left field but I think it would be an extremely difficult study without having the chams with you personally (or in another tightly controlled environment).

OldChamKeeper mentioned if the lights were contributing that we would see more instances of MBD. However, there are other genetic components that could predisposition the animal to MBD which would influence what we are seeing in terms of electromagnetic waves and any correlation to MBD. With that being said, the animal's environment would also be a factor here - is the animal's enclosure in an area with a lot of objects that are emitting electromagnetic waves? If so, that animal would be exposed to more of the waves than one that is kept in an area with just itself and it's lights (a living room vs bedroom for example). Just something else to consider I suppose.

Sorry if my ramblings don't make much sense, it's been an extremely long week and I'm exhausted :)
 
Metabolic bone disease, or MBD, is a catch all term for a relatively large number of symptoms that all seem to stem from similar causes, ie incorrect lighting, incorrect supplementation, or incorrect heating in combination with slightly incorrect levels of the other two options.

MBD is not one disease, as far as veterinary medicine is concerned, it's a catch all term for poor husbandry. It is also known as "Secondary Nutritional Hyperthyroidism", and as the second common name implies, it is almost entirely due to poor nutrition (either what is provided or external factors preventing provided nutrition from being absorbed properly).

While it is a valid concern to think that possibly a wavelength emitted from our lights could be causing problems in animals that have to utilize those lights for proper nutritional absorption (and thus get really close for a really long time to light sources they wouldn't approach in the wild), it is not likely to be the cause. One, the sun emits electromagnetic waves too (they're in our atmosphere! Oh nooooeeeeessss). Two, our lights just aren't that strong! They can irritate the eyes, but usually, eye problems etc happen when lights are either mounted incorrectly (you'd have eye problems with a light bulb pointing at your eyeball all day too), or just plain made with a manufacturer's defect - which would, again, irritate the eyeballs. No MBD as a result.

LIGHT is a type of electromagnetic radiation. Everything sent off by the sun is technically a type of "electromagnetic wave". It is one portion of a big spectrum of radiation put off by the sun, and to claim that electromagnetic radiation in general is causing any of xyz factors kinda puts you into the same category of people who think wearing tinfoil hats will prevent the government from reading their thoughts.

Here is an excellent article discussing why short of our cell phones or lights producing gamma rays or x-rays, they are pretty much harmless as far as concerns for cancer causing issues (same logic applies for causing bone density loss). Same goes for the whole MBD thing - the lights we use barely emit enough UV for the animals to process vitamin D3 that has been supplemented to them. If they aren't receiving enough UV to stimulate natural D3 production, it's really darn hard to believe they're getting enough of any kind of non-visible light to do things like cause bone density problems.

As per this wikipedia article discussing electromagnetic radiation, "The effects of EMR upon biological systems (and also to many other chemical systems, under standard conditions) depend both upon the radiation's power and frequency. For lower frequencies of EMR up to those of visible light (i.e., radio, microwave, infrared), the damage done to cells and also to many ordinary materials under such conditions is determined mainly by heating effects, and thus by the radiation power. By contrast, for higher frequency radiations at ultraviolet frequencies and above (i.e., X-rays and gamma rays) the damage to chemical materials and living cells by EMR is far larger than that done by simple heating, due to the ability of single photons in such high frequency EMR to damage individual molecules chemically."

Basically, lower wavelengths mean that the damage is because of heat. Higher wavelengths cause chemical damage, as in they break cell bonds - normally associated with cancer. Cell phones and our lights do not produce intense or high enough wavelengths to be causing the kind of damage that results in MBD. It's poor husbandry, not the way the lights are made.

-Jen
 
OldChamKeeper said:
I have seen entire BATCHES of defective bulbs be sent out to stores. What's a defective bulb? When you use a light meter on a brand new bulb and it is putting out UV equivalent to a used 6 month old one. I had to send back a few batches in the 90's.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this. I have easily 15 UVB lights in the house. I ended up buying the 6.2 Solar Meter. Was shocked to find out 3 bulbs that had been used for less than 3 months were barely emitting any UVB.

I've also bought brand new bulbs and have them emitting 0.

I do think in some cases, the people do have proper husbandry, BUT many people do not have a UV meter. So the person's reptile gets sick because the owner doesn't know the bulb is actually defective.

And let's face it too. Some people POST things that look good, but they aren't really doing what they say they are doing too. This is probably rare, but I have no doubt it exists.
 
I was not thinking about electromagnetic fields created by UVB tube lights (which as was suggested would mean it would happen frequently) but more along the lines of the ballasts' electromagnetic fields and proximity of the electromagnetic fields to the chameleons.
 
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