Mating - Panther/Veiled?

fullhouse

New Member
OK - here is my story. I am a mother of 4 boys (ages 6,6,6,8 - yes triplets) who love reptiles. So we started out with a couple of tree frogs & some anoles. Easy huh? Then the boys found a couple of baby garter snakes ... still easy. Then my brother in law bought three chameleons and abandoned them - left them with my in-laws. So my in-laws ask us if we would mind looking after them until my brother-in-law wants them back.... that was about 6 months ago (May) -- I think they are ours now. Anyway - we received two juvenile chameleons (appx 3 mos old at the time??) and one older veiled chameleon. We knew nothing about caring for chameleons but did some research and have been doing our best. I took them all to a vet a couple of months ago and he said they appeared to be in good health so I guess I'm doing ok. Anyway.... when we got the chams we were very careful to keep them in the same cages that they had been in when my brother-in-law had them b/c we figured he must know what to do..... he had the two juveniles in a cage together. We didnt know if they were male or female and didnt know if they were even the same species. Turns out it was a male veiled and a female panther. When they got bigger and began getting aggressive w/ each other we got them a new larger cage but kept them together (I know... bad, but I didnt know then ... oops). Anyway, early october she started turning really cool orange/black color (I now know this means she had mated? right?) and mid october she layed 10 eggs. My husband was feeding them and she just started laying eggs in the bottom of her cage - in the substrate material. We watched her and did some research quick on the internet - I made an incubator for the eggs. It's been 2 months. The eggs still look good - I took them to the vet and he said he thought they looked good. So.... my first question is.... is it possible for them to successfully cross-breed like this (ie.. panther/veiled) or are these eggs destined to never hatch??? Second question - If eggs are layed which are not fertile - how long does it take for them to shrivel up? If they still look the same after two months as when they were layed, does that mean they are likely fertile?

FYI - I have now separated the two. Our older veiled died last month :( and I purchased a new male panther to try and breed with our little egg laying machine. I figure, if she's gonna lay eggs every 3-4 months anyway, I may as well get her a suitable boyfriend right?? So here is my next question. She layed eggs about 2 months ago. To my knowledge, she has not mated again b/c her new panther boyfriend is not yet sexually mature. She is getting pretty fat and getting a bit of an attitude recently. She does not, however, have the gravid coloring. If she lays eggs again in the next month, but never shows gravid coloring, does that mean that the eggs are not fertile? I read somewhere that the sperm can actually be stored in the female and can fertilize 2 clutches of eggs without another mating.

Sorry so long - I have read a number of books but none have addressed my strange situation. I truly am trying to take care of them properly. Hope using this forum some helps. Thanks. - fullhouse
 

Brad

Administrator
Staff member
hi fullhouse

Panther and Veiled chameleons can not produce offspring. If your chams are different species, then I assume your eggs are infertile. If the eggs are fertile, then I'm confused :p There are a few good related articles at ChameleonNews. Here is a link to one. Caring for female chameleons is more difficult than a male chameleon. Their nutrition intake can be more demanding and less forgiving because of the eggs (fertile or not).

wow triplets :D
 

Chameleon

New Member
It will take 6 to 12 months to icubate the eggs. I=Make sure they are incubated between 73 degrees and 76 degrees.
 
Do not throw them away. If they did not mold over within a month or two, they are probably fertile. There is nothing impossible going on here. If the veiled fertilzed the pardalis eggs, odds are high that they will not hatch. Proably just non-viable offspring. HOWEVER, that does not mean it cannot happen. You actually might get hybrid offspring. We're not talking breeds here, we're talking about different species.

Here's what is likely, highest probability to lowest:
1. Eggs go bad within weeks/months - too many lethal gene combinations
2. Eggs go near full-term, then go bad, as the babies just get to a point where their genes are fatal
3. Eggs are slit, but babies too weak/sickly to emerge
4. Eggs hatch - but babies are not really healthy, many if not all die.
5. Eggs hatch, and they eat drink and seem fine. I buy a couple from you to study. They will most likely (90% certainty) be unable to reproduce, like mules (which CAN reproduce, sometimes)

Still, it's interesting. Definatly not something you would replicate intentionally, but also something that should be studied in some way shape or form. Keep us updated.
 
Eric Adrignola said:
Here's what is likely, highest probability to lowest:
1. Eggs go bad within weeks/months - too many lethal gene combinations
2. Eggs go near full-term, then go bad, as the babies just get to a point where their genes are fatal
3. Eggs are slit, but babies too weak/sickly to emerge
4. Eggs hatch - but babies are not really healthy, many if not all die.
5. Eggs hatch, and they eat drink and seem fine. I buy a couple from you to study. They will most likely (90% certainty) be unable to reproduce, like mules (which CAN reproduce, sometimes)
Well a few things:
1) Your #1 option is already illiminated, 7 months is a long time.
2) I like your option 5 because I can trust you to examin and report them well.
3) I want to name them. Im thinking.... Rinho Chameleons... eh? Eh?
 

Jerm

Avid Member
eggs...

If these eggs were not cooled down, and since the female was the panther, I feel like 7 months might not be long enough for them. Just my opinion. It would be interesting to know how that works when you mix them. I've heard of this happening once before from a man in Tampa, FL. He said that it was an accident when the two crossed, but someone broke in to his shop and stole all of his chameleon eggs and some of his breeding stock before they hatched. I'm not sure if it is true but you never know.

Jerm
 
Jerm said:
If these eggs were not cooled down, and since the female was the panther, I feel like 7 months might not be long enough for them. Just my opinion. It would be interesting to know how that works when you mix them. I've heard of this happening once before from a man in Tampa, FL. He said that it was an accident when the two crossed, but someone broke in to his shop and stole all of his chameleon eggs and some of his breeding stock before they hatched. I'm not sure if it is true but you never know.

Jerm
For sure it's not enough for them, but by seven months you should probably see signs of if they are viable though...

Also, the guy who stole those eggs... must have been very confused when they hatch and he had to ID those hatchlings! Joking.
 

Jerm

Avid Member
Yeah, that would be pretty good.:D He thinks that it was probably someone that he knows by how they knew exactly what to take and where to find things so they probably knew what they were. I can normally tell if an egg is fertile within a week of laying.

Jerm
 
Jerm said:
Yeah, that would be pretty good.:D He thinks that it was probably someone that he knows by how they knew exactly what to take and where to find things so they probably knew what they were. I can normally tell if an egg is fertile within a week of laying.

Jerm
Thats rough. I should think of securing my collection a bit more. There are tons of windows all around the area I keep it in.
 

MicheleSmith

New Member
Jerm said:
Pictured here is the Furcifer Calyptratus.:D (kidding!)
The elusive Peiled chameleon...LOL. I don't know, I kinda' like 'Vanther' chameleon, it rolls of the tongue...:p

Hahaha, great pic Jerm.
 
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