Marcus the school lamb

Chamgirl

Chamgirl

Avid Member
I would never eat lamb, I gave it up when I was just 15. Despite my views on that I can see that Marcus was different from your average lamb bred for slaughter. He became a pet and I feel its wrong to name an animal and bond with it and then kill it. Even if the majority of those school children (naive and wanting more animals) agreed to have him sent to slaughter then I feel sorry for the sensitive caring ones that are now distraught. As for Marcus, he would have raised more money for the school by being sold to comedian Paul O'Grady alive than his meat being sold in a sick raffle at £1 a ticket.
 
Not to stir the waters (I'm vegetarian, to begin with), but traditionally in the US, in order to show their animal-raising projects in competition at fairs, 4H children had to agree that the winning animal would be sold for slaughter at the fair. The child had generally raised the animal from a baby, worked closely with it and, in many cases, bonded with it. This was considered all part of training for being a successful farmer, in which slaughter plays a role as well as husbandry. I'm not sure I see this as much different (although the vote aspect is a novelty).

Food for thought is all.
 
I showed goats and pigs throughtout highschiol. What's wrong with slaughtering an animal? It's not like they beat and pulled the limbs off it and tortured it. I'm sure it was euthanized the same way anyone's hamburger/steak was..

I also really don't agree with how they say livestock are abused. In general it's not as bad as everyone thinks. There may be a few bad ranchers, but the majority don't do anything that abuses their animals.
 
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It's things like that petition that have resulted in the country being like it is today. Why is this any different to what Gordon ramsey did? If you are going to feed your children meat, they should know where it comes from. by doing so, we can then build on the way these animals are kept. I am giving vegtariansim another go, but to see if I feel any healthier. People eat meat, it's a fact of life. Children need to understand this. Whilst I admit I would struggle with this, I would still have my children involved. They have to live in the real world, they should be introduced to it at a young age. Teachers are there to teach, and parents are the ones to take responsibility for emotional support. i think the head teacher was right, and should keep her job. If you think you can do better, let's see these people give it a go and see how long they last.
 
AJA said:
Are we allowed to discuss this ?

Per this article the kids voted 13-1 to have Marcus slaughtered.

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE58D4LR20090914

What is wrong with showing kids where their food comes from?
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Nothing at all, but given the kids ages, parental input before this decision was made might have been a good idea. Not all kids are emotionally equipped to deal with such specific realities. The '1' for example.
I wonder how many of the 13 really understood exactly what they were voting for?
I certainly hope they didnt push the 'reality check' to include a visit to the slaughterhouse.

On the otherside of the coin, there's enough sadistic cruel twisted little bastards about without respect for living things as it is, do we really want 8/9 year olds
voting to slaughter any animal, let alone one they had till then, been loving and caring for?

Mixed messages?

I also really don't agree with how they say livestock are abused. In general it's not as bad as everyone thinks. There may be a few bad ranchers, but the majority don't do anything that abuses their animals.
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:) Ignorance is bliss!
 
My personal opinion is that kids are being way too protected these days from reality. They were told what was going to happen and were aware of it (ages 6 to 11 , are you trying to tell me at that age they don't comprehend death?) . Most farms that have livestock raised for food name the animal " Dinnner" " Steak" or whatever to keep things in perspective. Hand feeding it and giving it a cute name didn't help the situation.

Marcus had a pretty good though short life. He wasn't up to his knees in mud and filth, he had fresh air, room to roam and good eats.

I am not being heartless here, as I have a bazillion critters of my own, but what upsets me, is that the villagers are ready to cruicifix someone for doing their job when the job was announced and discussed and agreed upon from
the start. I don't like the idea of trying to rope people into a cause without knowing both sides of the coin.

Just because a person does not like eating meat doesn't mean that 97% of the rest of us are wrong.

So what if the kids were witness to the slaughter? On a voluntarily basis of course. There is a good opportunity for an anatomy lesson.

My grand nephew (age 6) was 'sad' when the chickens they raised were going to be slaughtered in front of him. Typical when he raised them from yellow puff balls. When it was explained the whys and hows he was all for it. Will he grow up to be criminally insane? I don't think so. I think he will have an EDUCATED perspective of life.
 
your welcome Chamgirl :)

My grand nephew (age 6) was 'sad' when the chickens they raised were going to be slaughtered in front of him........................... Will he grow up to be criminally insane? I don't think so. I think he will have an EDUCATED perspective of life.
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LOL Anna,
The little Jeffrey Dahmer didnt mind either! I bet his mother thought the same.

They were told what was going to happen and were aware of it (ages 6 to 11 , are you trying to tell me at that age they don't comprehend death?)
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Most, No. Either way, a basic comprehension of death dosent equate to emotional maturity. I dont think its nessesary to teach kids that age, like that, in order to give young children education about where food comes from, granted it was mild compared to actually allowing them to witness it.
Theres no reason to sack anyone, but parents should be involved in novel educational ideas outside the mainstream curriculum.
I would be furious If my child was involved and I had no idea.

Yes we do protect kids so much more than we used to, I know, Im a parent, I also disagree with coddling that stems from political correctness and the ideas of 20 somethings just out of school. That said, we live in a more violent world today than 30 yrs ago. Im not about to let my 13 yo roam the streets after dark, or in daylight for that matter, unless I know exactly where she is, just because 'todays kids are too cotton wool'. Tell that to a parent whos kid is abducted, raped, murdered.

As for allowing kids that age to watch slaughter, some may be judged mature enough to comprehend its value or lack, but not all, certainly not just because they are 6-11 yo.
Personally, while I appreciate kids should be aware of these things, The idea of an 'anatomy lesson' for a kid that age, disgusts me, and I think it would be akin to emotional abuse.
I had such an anatomy lesson myself in the same age bracket, and not by choice, I was forced to watch, by well meaning but ignorantly cruel relatives who thought as you do Anna.

Have you ever watched an animal slaughtered? Its head cut off, legs kicking, blood gushing, insides torn out with bare hands? Ill bet not. I have, and I certainly wouldnt wish the insight on any 6-11 yo. Ever.

"Toys away Kiddies, Its Time for Miss Anna's Anatomy lesson, gather round"

GRAPHIC IMAGE WARNING
http://globalfire.tv/nj/graphs/ritslaughter.jpg

I dont think so! Balance and moderation in all things. I have never forgotten the most horrendous experience of my life.
I didnt turn vegetarian or join Peta, nor did I abuse animals or people, but you can be sure as hell I never forgave that bastard either! I was just a soft hearted little boy who loved animals and wasnt emotionally equipped to deal with something so gross, I didnt speak for months. I fail to comprehend the 'toughening up' attitude some parents take, theres enough twisted and emotionally damaged people in the world already. Let kids BE kids, whats the rush? Adult life sux, and various experiences wont be any easier to cope with just because your life sucked as a kid too! :(
 
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I am a vegitarian, and I'm all for eating meat (so long as it wasn't tortured, or some crazy stuff like that)

I'm 15 and I'm going to asume that you are all adults, and though I'd like to believe that I'm more adult than 6-11 year olds, and I suppose I am to an extent, but I'm still a kid just as they are. I feel that it was wrong to put responsibility that great on their shoulders. We dont really know if the teachers explained to the children the consiquence of their actions, did the children know what the word slaughter meant? Did they know how the lamb would be killed? So how do we know if they fully understood what they were voting on?

From my perspective, I dont think that kids even my age would/should be able to vote on somethings' life. I think just about all the kids I know are not emotionally mature enough to decide on something like that.

I feel that it is wrong for some of you to say that it's perfectly fine to let children 'learn' where food comes from. These children voted on somethings life. They didn't go to a slaughter house and actually learn where it comes from, they were just told to vote. If you feel that they are emotionally mature enough for an 'anatomy lesson' then do you feel that they are mature enough to drive cars on the streets with you? Should they be out on a jury to decide if someone is guilty or not?

And though most people say that it's different because it's an animal and not a person, what's the difference?

Just another point of view for you.
 
pssh, very well put:). If you don't mind I would like to quote what you say on the Save Marcus the lamb groups I belong to (4 in total). I am admin on one of the groups as I feel very strongly about this subject. I won't use your username I'll just say I saw this on a forum.

The mother of one of the children at Lydd school has been in close contact with me. I won't use her name or her daughter's as she doesn't want any repercussions for her daughter. Anyway this is what she told me (I have her permission to use this):-

"a number of children that voted for marcus's demise are now suffering with guilt as almost all of them thought "to market" meant to be sold to another farmer and now they understand that marcus is dead, they have cried, i dont think they will vote the same thing with the pigs, lets just pray that she does'nt get them!! "This is from someone that knows from Lydd school. Even more children are upset about Marcus than the media would have us know. A lot of those against our campaign seem to not care about the children, brushing that issue aside. The mother that wrote this told me her daughter is so upset she has turned vegetarian over this and needs counselling (which her gp has arranged, the school didn't offer). It's things like this that make me realise we are 100% right on this issue. On the groups page we also heard from a young boy at the school and both him and his sister are very upset indeed to lose the school pet. He even said he is scared of the head mistress now. The petition to remove the head teacher from the school is going well now after a slow start. More signatures are needed though please (link to vote on the first page of this thread).
 
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pssh said:
We dont really know if the teachers explained to the children the consiquence of their actions, did the children know what the word slaughter meant? Should they be out on a jury to decide if someone is guilty or not?

And though most people say that it's different because it's an animal and not a person, what's the difference?
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Exactly, you DON'T know what was said, or done in this situation. Even comments from 'parents of kids at the school' are hearsay. We don't know what happened, or what was explained. We don't know if parents were informed of this plan, and then 'conveniently' forgotten when it is getting negative press due to some individuals. That seems a common thing in this country lately, everyone following the loudest sheep.

Children shouldn't have to see the slaughter of an animal, no-one should, but at the same time, if you eat meat, you need to accept that an animal is being slaughtered for you to eat. Children need to also learn this, in an easy way, from an early age. And the jury comment does not apply at all. I am sorry, it is an animal, and it is different, whether you like it or not. If you want to apply that logic, it should be illegal to eat meat full stop. We seem to 'assert' dominance (rightly or wrongly) over the animal world, therefore you can't apply the same logic. When we take on a pet, we take on responsibility for that animal. It's not the same.
 
WelshOneEmma said:
And the jury comment does not apply at all. I am sorry, it is an animal, and it is different, whether you like it or not. If you want to apply that logic, it should be illegal to eat meat full stop. We seem to 'assert' dominance (rightly or wrongly) over the animal world, therefore you can't apply the same logic. When we take on a pet, we take on responsibility for that animal. It's not the same.
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It was just to make a point, I meant that children shouldn't be allowed to choose who lives and who dies. Be it animal or person. Would you let your child decide when your animals should be fed? Probably not, they, most likely, couldn't handle the responsibility and the animal may die from lack of or over feeding. The same thing with drinking age and smoking age, and casinos, and other things that children aren't allowed to do. That's why only adults should have that responsibility, just like almost everything else until children are adults.

I suppose I could have picked my words more carefully, but in any case, that's all I meant by it.

And Chamgirl, I don't feel that the teacher should be fired, but I do think the program should be shut down. Teachers should stick to one or two small classroom pets that they can keep for their (the animals) whole lives.
 
pssh said:
And Chamgirl, I don't feel that the teacher should be fired, but I do think the program should be shut down. Teachers should stick to one or two small classroom pets that they can keep for their (the animals) whole lives.
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I notice that this second comment was omitted from the facebook group. It would appear that if you do not agree that this woman is evil, as are apparently people who eat meat, you are unreasonable, and imbecile, and happy for children to learn how to torture and murder.

What is going on with society? hardly any have any perspective or sense these days.
 
I dont think peoples choice to eat meat or not has anything to do with it Emma.
It's about a classroom full of 6-11 yo's and what message they are getting, how they interprate the lesson.
Lets teach kids about human death/justice by having them vote weather to watch a few executions in the electric chair? We're a progressive 'new age' school!
They are criminals getting executed, so its different, right?

Kids witness more than too much violence these days, real and otherwise, no wonder we get storys like these.....

A kitten is fighting to survive after kids threw bricks at her and then set her on fire in West Baltimore...

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/features/mutts/blog/2009/08/kitten_tortured_burned_in_west.html

burnedkitty.jpg


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article4874657.ece

http://www.afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2009/school_animals_killed_in_cruel_act

http://penrith-press.whereilive.com...htered-at-nepean-and-cranebrook-high-schools/

The whole uproar is because most parents beleive the lesson, allowing children to vote for the slaugher of an animal they had cared for like a pet, sends mixed messages about respect for living things, despite the intention to 'wise them up' about where food comes from. Most felt the kids probably didnt fully understand the ramifications of their vote, and were annoyed because alledgedly, there was little discussion about the lesson with parents, no permission to participate letter sent home etc.

I dont think this is an unreasonable perspective.
Why is it that any discussion of animal welfare, immediatly brings out the rabid 'Anti-vegetarian, I hate Peta, Humans eat meat so get over it' mob? We are not all vegetarian peta looneys just because we beleive in respect for life, regardless its human or not, and advocate care and moderation in teaching kids, especially young ones, various facts of life.

http://www.sniksnak.com/ac/abuse.html
 
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For one, what does that article of kids abusing a cat have to deal with the slaughter of a lamb? Once again the lamb wasn't tortured. It was humanely put down. Kids where I am from raise livestock to show and then sell them to slaughter starting from first grade. And everyone realizes it. Everyone names the animal and it's really not that big of a deal. It's how you get your food. Do you like hamburgers? Well the chances are that one of your hamburgers you've had throughout your life was from a cow some kid raised. The kids that raise these animals grow up fine and actually have a lot of respect for animals. Most of them turn out to be vets or ranchers as well.

You say that all the animals are tortured and that the meat industry is so horrendous like you see it everyday... do you? I was actually raised around it. We didn't torture our animals nor did my neighbors or the rest of my family that raises cattle. They are fed out in a pasture and then sent to a market where you get a price / lbs. Then they are sent to feed lots where they spend about a week eating grains etc. before they are slaughtered. Do you really think it is profitable for the place processing the animals to feed them a bunch of hormones for a week before they slaughter?

Yes, there are a few people that feed high protein foods and some may add other enhancers into food and some feed lots may be inhumane, but it is not the whole industry. There are people out there to make sure animals are treated humanely and to make sure meat is healthy for consumption (not loaded with steroids etc.)
 
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For one, what does that article of kids abusing a cat have to deal with the slaughter of a lamb?
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Kids not mature enough, mentally or emotionally to deal with such realities will have issues. Tell me what makes a child abuse animals?? The concensus is that children exposed to violence (yes, slaughter is violent) at an early age may develope physcological problems because of the trauma caused, in some cases leading to their abuse of animals and later people. Read the last link.

Once again the lamb wasn't tortured.
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And once again, nobody said it was!

Do you like hamburgers? Well the chances are that one of your hamburgers you've had throughout your life was from a cow some kid raised.
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No sh*t sherlock,
Just because I like a hamburger, dosent mean I want to meet the cow, or see it slaughtered!

You say that all the animals are tortured and that the meat industry is so horrendous like you see it everyday... do you?
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Your words, not mine. And yes Ive seen plenty of the 'industry standard' practices of slaughterhouse/stockyard . Nobody except you said 'torture' in this context, but 'standard practice', Ive seen with my own eyes, particularly at slaughter, comes very close indeed. In any case, this is irrelevant to the subject at hand, likewise talk of hormones and steroids.
We're discussing the appropriatness of having young children, who have raised an animal like a pet, and no doubt, in some cases, formed a bond with the animal, being asked to vote to have it slaughtered.
It may well be 'no big deal' to you, but you cant speak for other peoples children.
Im sure your not aged 6-11 are you rocky?
 
I'm not age 6-11, but I was around it when I was that age and I didn't go torture animals nor do I believe it altered me in anyway. I do agree that it is a parents right to decide if their child should be subject to that or not, but I don't agree that it is harming them in anyway.

I really doubt that those kids that tortured those animals in those articles raised livestock.

Also, while you may not have said the animal was tortured that's what they are acting like happened when they talk about the kids having to deal with the animal being "murdered". When I was talking about the torture quotes I was talking about those articles not what you said jo.

I'm trying to point out that raising animals for slaughter doesn't make you disrespect animals or their life. I was raised with alot of kids that did this very same thing (raise livestock for show and then market) and none of them showed any disrespect towards living things.
 
I don't understand the facebook thing at all, Emma. I may be misreading your post, but from what I understand is that you think that I think people who eat meat are evil? The reason I became a vegetarian and why I still am one are very different. I became one when I was young because I liked animals and couldn't stand the thought of eating them. I now eat fish and seafood and I continue to not eat meat beacuse I think it tastes gross.

I don't understand why you are so upset with me? I just thought I'd add a younger perspective as I am, after all, only 15. Do you think that it's okay to 'bully' children? Cause that may explain why you feel the way you do about the lamb and about me.

Out of curiosity, why do you believe animals are different from people? Or maybe I should say lower than people?

Something for everyone, why do most of the meat "defenders" jump to the conclusion that others think all animals are tortured? Or that vegitarians are crazy animal freaks?

EDIT: Emma, I, now, see that you think I don't think this woman is evil? Wtf? You are the one with no perspective, you agree and disagree with me at the same time but agrue with me also. I don't understand you at all, and probably never will, so I'd appreciate it if you'd stop stabbing at me with your words that make no sense to me.
 
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