Madgascar Biome Project!

[cyberlocc]

Also guys I made a blog so I can edit it easier, here it is. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-the-madgascar-biome-project.2371/

I will likely post to both places, the blog will just be cleaner. If a Mod could edit the OP, and remove the Table of Contents for this,

"(For a cleaner Version, see the Blog at https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/intro-to-the-madgascar-biome-project.2371/)"

It would be much appreciated.

 

[Franquixote]

Here is a photo of where my chameleon plants are growing. This year they are showing almost NO colors except green, but I'm sure it has something to do with sunlight, nutrients, etc. Last year they were all pink and yellow and cream colored throughout. Same plant for sure, so it's just particular growing season variability.

 

[cyberlocc]

Here is a photo of where my chameleon plants are growing. This year they are showing almost NO colors except green, but I'm sure it has something to do with sunlight, nutrients, etc. Last year they were all pink and yellow and cream colored throughout. Same plant for sure, so it's just particular growing season variability.

Yep that is chameleon plants , very pretty even when green.

Let me do some research on bounding them, and I may just hit you up for some cuttings

 

[jamest0o0]

I don't know the difference bet

Well see my problem with that link is they say Eastern lowlands and Dry deciduous forests in one swing.

However that doesn't exist. All of the dry decidous forests are only on the west part of Madgascar. But it brings up good points like Nosy Be, that entire island is a Rainforest lol.

Speaks about regioning.
http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/172955/0

"The Panther Chameleon is endemic to Madagascar where it is widespread in lowland areas of the northeast and east. Raselimanana and Rakotomala (2003) give the elevation range for this species from 80 m to 950 m above sea-level, although it certainly occurs at lower elevations (Rabearivony et al. 2008) and may be less common above 700 m (Raxworthy 1988, Raselimanana et al. 2000, Andreone et al. 2005). The chameleon's extent of occurrence within its native range is estimated to be 91,090 km²; populations have also been introduced to the islands of Réunion and Mauritius (N. Cole pers. comm. July 2011). "


Then tells you about the region.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/ecoregions/at0117

I see nowhere, that states there is dry decidous forests in that area of Madgascar, also the plants listed, I have vetted as being found in the same area, Eastern Madgascar, less than 950 above sea level. As a matter of fact, (Granted this is wikipedia, everything I have seen says this)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_dry_deciduous_forests
The Madagascar dry deciduous forests represent a tropical dry forest ecoregion situated in the western and northern part of Madagascar. The area has high numbers of endemic plant and animal species but has suffered large-scale clearance for agriculture.

Madgascars Dry deciduous forests also possess, an extreme amount of toxic plants to chameleons, 95% from what I have been told of the succulents there are euphoria, which are extremely toxic.


The entire Eastern strip of Madgascar, is rainforest. Until you go over the central plains on to the west there is no dry areas, and Chameleons are not found in the west or the central highlands.

I think @Chris Anderson would be a big help right now lol. I have a feeling he will know the correct answer .

And If I am wrong, then I will redo my plants that's not an issue at all.

Found some good mapping, so check this out it seems we are both right lol.

However, to me it still looks like the majority are in Humid Forest and Sub Humid forests. Also the dry area, they mention is on a beach, is that not high humidity still?

In your one link it says this exactly. I'm not arguing where they are found(lowlands), they're obviously not highland montanes, but the question is to where they prefer to spend their time. Steve irwin even had a video of finding one alongside a dry road where many people seem to see them

:
This species is abundant in lowland degraded scrub and forest habitats, where it uses trees of up to 10 m in height (Raxworthy 1988). Although it may also use the canopy in relatively intact forest (Raxworthy 1988), this is thought to be a relatively rare occurrence (Andreone et al. 2005). D'Cruze et al. (2007) found Panther Chameleonsin sites associated with forest or in areas that have been highly disturbed by people. On the island of Nosy Be the highest abundance was found along well-vegetation roadsides (Andreone et al. 2005), and in ylang-ylang and coffee plantations (Andreone et al. 2003). Surveys in closed forest at sites in eastern and northern Madagascar revealed a notably low abundance of chameleons compared to roadsides in Nosy Be (Andreone et al. 2005). In the Loky-Manambato complex near Daraina the lizard was found in all 12 survey sites, including dry forest, littoral forest and transitional forest In a lowland forest in eastern Madagascar the chameleon was not encountered inside the main vegetation block, but was found breeding in areas of abandoned agriculture adjacent to the forest (Rabearivony et al. 2008). Panther Chameleons may be associated with open areas in forests that are found alongside rivers (Andreone et al. 2005). A preference for open areas might be related to the opportunities for basking or visual communication using colour (Andreone et al. 2005). Sexual maturity is reached within one year and females are thought to follow an annual life history, with males growing larger and living for longer (Andreone et al. 2005). Clutch size in the wild is reported as at least 23 eggs (Raselimanana and Rakotomalala 2003). This species has rapid growth, a relatively short life span and high fecundity and could probably withstand increased levels of exploitation as long as degraded forest cover does not diminish (Andreone et al. 2005).

 

[jamest0o0]

The point is they seem to be found all over, but everything I've seen on them, including the link you posted insinuates that they don't spend as much time in dense rainforests and more time out in the open. Maybe someone that's been there can speak on it.

I believe the episodes(been awhile) were episode 44-45 season 1. And not that I'm advocating for dry wide open enclosures, just stating what someone who has been there said he's observed. Along with what I've gathered through my reading. Maybe I'm way off, but that's how I took it. I've never been there so I cant be 100%

 

[jamest0o0]

Either way this is a really cool project, and I'm sure your cham will do just fine. Just friendly debate

 

[cyberlocc]

The point is they seem to be found all over, but everything I've seen on them, including the link you posted insinuates that they don't spend as much time in dense rainforests and more time out in the open. Maybe someone that's been there can speak on it.

I believe the episodes(been awhile) were episode 44-45 season 1. And not that I'm advocating for dry wide open enclosures, just stating what someone who has been there said he's observed. Along with what I've gathered through my reading. Maybe I'm way off, but that's how I took it. I've never been there so I cant be 100%

Oh I know they are often found in lower trees and bushes. However those lower trees and bushes are still in the humid forests.

Like it said, there is a river breaking through the tree line, then on that river is bushes and small trees. However it's still a rainforest right?

Anyway the debate started, if I am correct about the plants right? And the humidity?

So for the plants, I chose the plants I did, as they are extremely common in the same areas the chams are found. I have actually seen photos of chams with Dragon Trees and Darwin's orchids in the background.

As you said from the article, the chameleons are found in breaks of the canopy, where light is high, that is also where Dragon Trees and Darwin's orchids are found. They like the light, and can't contend with the high canopys.

That said, as far as Chameleons being only seen outside of the canopy. I think that's fairly subjective. If me and you went there today, where do you think we would have the best chance seeing a Chameleon? Do you think we can spot a small Cham at the canopy top 30ft high? Or do you think we will see more on 6ft bushes, where they are at our eyes height?

Seeing more in a place more accessible to us isn't uncommon, but I would argue that's due to that's what we can see.

We could see the same about Deep sea fish, if we based off what we seen, deep sea fish entire really deep sea at all, because we encounter them in higher waters, that's isn't because they aren't deep sea fish, but more so because we can't go that low.

Just an observation.

Either way, the humidity doesn't drop to 30% due being 5ft off the tree line, is what I was saying from that front, especially when there is an ocean with major breeze blowing towards that 6ft section.

I'm also not saying that Panthers as a low land animal have the same humidity requirements of a high lander, with both being rainforests. Because I think environments are obviously going to be drastically different.

On the same note, I think people have different defitions of rainforest. The pic is of a river cutting the rainforest of lowland Madgascar. Notice it fits your statement of being lower to the ground, it is also still a part of the rainforest .

Also peep the Dracenca in the pic . While not a dragon tree, they are in similar areas. All my plants are pretty high light, from the Eastern rain forests. I, they inhabitant that same breaking of tree line.

I hope Chris Anderson can chime in with some knowledge.


Another thing of note, as sad as it is. If we go with the dry deciduous forest region for panthers, then that arises new questions and new concerns.

On my research, I also look at the succulents of Madagascar, a good 95% of them are spiked to high hell, and the ones that are not, are extremely poisonous even to reptiles. Which, makes matters even more difficult, how can a panther be native to there, when the ecosystem is literally designed to kill it? The plants that are poison isn't if eaten, its the sap and broken or injured branch secretes poisons that will kill with just skin contact.

 

[cyberlocc]

Okay if I am understanding this correctly, its what I said above, they are found in breaks of the forest, such as roads, rivers ect. Where the forest is broken so there is open space.

The plants I have so far, are found in the same areas, from everything I can find, so I'm good so far, I think. However if there is a problem with my plants, I want to know, as I want to correct it.

 

[Curlytails]

THE DETAILS!


THE ENCLOSURE

To be edited.

THE PLANTS

The setup will be 100% Bioactive, great stuff will fill gaps in the background, where the Cork Trees are not, it will be covered with Cocofiber fiber, that will then be covered with living moss. The Cork Trees will be adorned by Native Orchids, and Ferns!

Their will be Madgascar Native plants and trees planted in the 7inch deep soil bin.

Everything will be Madgascar Native Only! (Except the soil) I even plan to mix in Red Terrarium Sand to help imatate the red soil of the island! You won't see it, but I don't care lol!

Plant List:
Coming soon!

THE LIGHTING

The lighting, will of course be Naturalistic as well. We can't have Naturalistic, with lights turning on blasting tons of lumens, at 7am. So we need to make them gradual, like the sun. They need to ramp on, and they need to ramp off, they need to be brightest in afternoon, more orange in the morning, more blue at night.

We will be achieving this, in the fullest. To do so we will be using,

Basking - There will be 2 Arcadia Deep Heat projectors. Not only do these allow me the ability not have to worry about the light from basking lights. They also provide the chameleon with InfaRed heat! They will be tempature controlled, with the assistance of a Herpstat 6, to maintain perfect tempatures. On the opposite side, there will also be a fan, hooked to the Herpstat to cool the cage as needed to maintain perfect temps.

Grow Lights - The grow lights, are going to be a very imporant piece of the pie. Not only do they give the Cham, a nice lit enclosure, they also provide my hues and color changes, needed to make Dawn and Dusk be completely different atmospheres. This will be accomplished using 4 AI Prime Fresh Water LEDs. At 50ws and 4000 Lumens each, and the ability to control the spectrum, precisely, these will accomplish what we need and more! And do so while delivering over 16k Lumens of light, in any color I want with incredible levels of PAR.

UVB - Now I know what your thinking, what's the point? How can you adjust the spectrum or color, and ramp the lights when you have a 5k lumens T5HO UVB bulb blasting. Your right, which is why I found a solution. With the combination of a Phillips Advance Dimming T5HO ballast, and a TC 421, LED controller converted to 0-10v. I will be able to control the UVB bulbs brightness, down to 1% of the bulbs power! Which will allow me to ramp it on in the morning as well as 1 other suprise, we will get to later.

THE WATER

We all know Chameleons need lots of water. However what they really need, is humidity. We will achieve both.

Humidity - We will be maintining nighttime humidity at 80% for the nighttime, just like it is in Madgascar. We will do so, with the help of a Ultrasonic Humidifer, and the Herpstat 6, Humidity mode.

Misting - Misting, nothing special here for now. Just a Mistking, with 4 Nozzles. A Rain system, is in the thought stages, but for now just a Mistking (any ideas??) There will also be a second fan, next to the cooling fan, this fan will be on timed intervals to ensure proper drying between sessions, it will also help with ventialtion.

Storms - This is a combination of all things up until this point, working in a beautiful glorious tandem. We have all seen Chameleons when the Mister turns on, they run, they hide, they look like a deer in the headlights. They go from sitting on a branch, enjoying life, to being blasted with a stream of water. They have no signs, like they do in the wild. So I will be recytifying that.

30 mins before the Misters turn on, in the afternoon and evening. The lights will began their storm mode. The lights will darken and blue, as if clouds have settled in.

15 Mins before the misters turn on, the timed fan will turn on, creating a light gentle breeze. Helping to change atmospheric pressure, and provide a cool breeze.

10 Mins before the misters turn on, the Fogger will turn on, bringing up the humidity, the pressure, and bringing the smell of rain on the air.

When the misters are on, the cloudy lights will flash bright white, to simulate the occasional lighting strikes.

After the mist is over. The lights will begin to ramp back to their normal spectrum, until the next storm.

It's late at night, will finish this post in the morning!

awesomeeee! glad to see you using arcadia products. only the best huh?

 

[cyberlocc]

awesomeeee! glad to see you using arcadia products. only the best huh?

Only the best!

 

[cyberlocc]

@jamest0o0 So I found this, Its by Petr, it just leads to more confusion kind of.
https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/Pa...CA6OT8V_c1n9oQFbMEL-gS_ziKRqNwPvYQTXiuVwee8qA

They say, "Distributed along NE, N, NW and E coast of Madagascar, south reaching the vicinity of Tamatave, including many offshore islands (e.g. Nosy Be, Nosy Boraha, Nosy Faly, Nosy Mangabe, Nosy Mitsio…). Introduced in Madagascar at Andasibe, long ago in Reunion and Mauritius (populations might be even originating from drifted single specimens, not man induced) and recently in USA (Florida)."

Then they say "Tropical humid climate" LOL.

I think, however, what they are saying is the forests chameleons live in the "Humid Forests" dont rain all year, and do have a dry season and a dry out period. All the plants, that I have, share that climate. They like to get wet and dry out, and they like to be drier in the winter, they also however want extremely high humidity at night, and semi high humidity during the day.

 

[jamest0o0]

Thank you for sharing. Since we talked about this, I've found so much conflicting information lol, the subject has me interested. I'm about to buy a plane ticket and go find out for myself haha. But I have heard most/all chameleons experience some type of dry season. I believe they usually still have very humid nights in most places. I think many veileds in yemen even die young due to the intense dry periods.

 

[cyberlocc]

Getting some serious wood work done today, to get it ready for paint next week. Taking a break atm.

Will have a update with cage pics pre paint soon!

Also in my spare time, learning more about the Apex, and what it can do, Going to completely replace the herpstat.

Now on the idea list, is not only Storms for the wet season, but Random Ones! With all Cues that we see in real life.

When the storms come, if they come that day, the basking lights will go off, then the clouds will begin to come in, which will be followed by the smell of rain (just a few secs of fogging) and a cool breeze, this will change the atmospheric pressure, all this will slowly began to happen over a 30min period, at the end of said period, The Cham will be greeted with a nice rain shower, not misters, a real rain shower! The rain will go for 5 minutes or so. After the water subsides, the breeze will die down, the sun will began to peak its head from the clouds, and light up the viv, and then the heat will come, and raise temperatures back to where they were, over another 30m period.

Not for me will "Rain" be a 2m misters spraying the cham for him to run and hide, but a randomized, season based, 1 hour event!

 

[cyberlocc]

Well cage shell ss pretty much done (built wise)

Still need to attach the screen top (hardware cloth) and then it's just a bunch of sanding and wood filler to get ready for painting next week!

I did decide to go with the Saltwater Epoxy, I did weigh all the options extensively, from a ease of use factor, and price and the ability to paint the entire thing with it, and 2-3 coats to interior it seems like the best way.


I'll update the blog in a bit, long dayyy.

No judging either! I'm new to this wood working stuff, so there is gaps and cracks ECT. But they will all be filled prior to paint! .

Oh overall dimensions as seen, 51" W, 27"D, 86"T.

Actual chameleon living space is 46"w, 22"d, 47"t (excluding the space where there is no skeleton, that's 2x2, to 2x2, but great stuff fill most of the space between the 2x2s which is why I use those numbers)

There is also a 3" gap between the cage and the wall, but 1x3s with trim hide it, this is for running power cords and PVC for the fogger.

The top is fully removable separate entity to hold the lights, and hide them from view. The inside frame is the same as the cage, and 9.5inches tall, the outside trim boards, go 3/4 past on top and bottom, so it can slide onto the cage. It's then held in by 6 screws (2 on the front 2 on each side)

Needed it to remove to deal with misters if needed easier (it will be 8inches from the top of this to my ceiling), and also because otherwise I couldn't get it through the door LOL.

Also need the advice of readers! The bottom sliding doors will be 1/4inch black PVC, but for the top ones, Tempered glass or Acrylic what do y'all think? Both have pros and cons.

 

[Nickinator]

Very cool!