Lost my little dude today :'(

[Carlton]

One other aspect of selling/buying chams at such a young age is the reality that there are often some clutchmates that are simply not destined to survive. They may have congenital problems that manifest themselves as the cham grows. Not saying this is what happened here, but its yet another reason to insist on older juveniles. I know you were not expecting this tiny little guy and the seller was clueless, but its something to consider in future.

 

[Nosyfaly]

I am so sorry for your loss. Please keep your head up!

 

[MaiRemy]

Sorry for your loss, lucki was so cute. Don't give up though, just do better next time. I made sure to know what kind of commitment I had to have before I stepped into this chameleon world. For months I did endless amounts of research to learn pros and cons from different techniques of keeping them. Also have read many sad articles of tragedies.. I order most of my food online. It's just cheaper and easier. Made plenty of trips to every pet store to find good feeders when I first started out and thankfully have my goto. May Lucki rip. ♡♡

 

[jaimeerosko]

Sorry for your loss, lucki was so cute. Don't give up though, just do better next time. I made sure to know what kind of commitment I had to have before I stepped into this chameleon world. For months I did endless amounts of research to learn pros and cons from different techniques of keeping them. Also have read many sad articles of tragedies.. I order most of my food online. It's just cheaper and easier. Made plenty of trips to every pet store to find good feeders when I first started out and thankfully have my goto. May Lucki rip. ♡♡

I did at least one month of solid, obsessive internet research. (When I do anything, I do it all the way. You would not even believe how much I know about chams now!) In February, I was under the impression that a 3-4 month old chameleon was A) old enough to be brought home and B) large enough to eat the smaller size of readily available "petstore" crickets and worms. I'm thinking now that Lucki was either way undersized/sick OR much younger than I was told he was. Also, I'm not sure where you live, but I'm in Chicago and I didn't find any food that was guaranteed to be alive upon arrival since the average temperature when I got Lucki was about 30 degrees. Also, I definitely couldn't find anything cheaper than what I could buy at the store or expo here. I found one place (keep in mind I was looking for very,very small food) where the worms are crickets were less than $20 and the shipping was over $30. And not even replaced if all the food was dead. I'd be interested to know what your resources are.

 

[jaimeerosko]

I'm really so sorry.

How could you know? You hear two months old and you think they are well established the way a puppy or kitten would be.

I believe I tracked down your breeder when you first posted about Lucki and gave him a piece of my mind. There were a quite a few people who showed up with panther babies around the same time you did. I was horrified anyone would sell something so small and delicate to people with no experience. I expected them all to die. I just couldn't believe someone could be so heartless--not caring about the little creatures they produced and not caring about the heartache the new owners were going to go through trying to keep tiny babies alive when they had zero experience and likely not the right set up.

The "breeder's" response--and I use the term "breeder" loosely since this was their one and only clutch from their first two chameleons they've owned that they've since gotten rid of--was that people like you should have done more research. I was disgusted s/he could be so cavalier with your money, your emotions and the lives of those tiny babies. I was angry that first experience into the joys of chameleons for most if not all of his buyers would be one of heartbreak.

I'm really sorry. From your description, this baby was in trouble before you picked him up. Babies that small that get into trouble almost always die. They are just too small to treat. They don't have the margin for error that a bigger animal has. Everything was stacked against you and Lucki.

Don't give up on chameleons. Find a reputable breeder who will sell you a well-started young animal who will give you support if you need it, who will make sure you have what you need. There are several panther breeders sponsors on this web site. I know one I feel confident to recommend who has something now although you might not be ready.. Don't be afraid to ship--it is really a nothing event for the baby. When I ship my babies off, I pack them up around dinner time and drive them to the FedEx beside the airport. They just got to sleep. Their new owners pick them up from the FedEx Ship Center early the next morning and they don't miss a beat.

Grieve and then get yourself a new baby to enjoy.

I'm certain that the person you contacted was not the breeder I got Lucki from. This guy (we will call him "John") appeared very professional and legitimate. When I arrived, John had Lucki packed up in his little container with his paper towel and cage. After a brief FAQ session, he asked if I would like to see Lucki's dad, I said yes, thinking he was going to bring out one reptile or lead me to a corner of his warehouse with two pet panthers. We go into the back and I see rows and rows of professional looking cages. A hundred animals, fifty dissimilar males, all sorts of colors. Ambanja, Nosy Be, Ambilobe, Ankaramy. Fifty peach ladies grouped together with their bins, everyone in a separate cage. The warehouse was spotless and odorless.. I heard one cricket chirp. The floor was clean, and the cages nearly pristine. I saw one small baby cage with at least one other tiny baby in it, but I only peered in for a second. I mentioned how impressed I was and how I had no idea that this was where I was going to end up and said something like "I feel like 30% of Chameleons must come from you or something, hahah.." to which he responded "Haha.. I actually think I am the third largest breeder in the country". Not sure if that's accurate or not, but he said he sells wholesale and to other breeders/sellers, at expos, etc. He told me he will have eggs all year long now; that's a lot of eggs and certainly they aren't all getting picked up by people like me.

So, he is a real breeder. He seemed to take excellent care of his animals and take pride in his craft.

Here's where it gets weird... I told him that Lucki had died. He seemed like a nice guy and was offering support and answering questions *up until* I told him Lucki's eye shut. So, after reading all these posts and living without a Cham for even just these past few days, I am already really missing it. I've partially accepted that yes, I will get another. So John finally responds about Lucki dying and says he can offer me another male babe (after it grows up a bit) for half the price of what I paid for Lucki (his guarantee is 14 days) or I can have a medium female. Since I have zero interest in adding eggs to this gigantic equation, I decline that. He *also* says that he does not lie about age (I told him the vet predicted he was 3-4 weeks) and that Lucki was really 3-4 months as he claimed and that he was my tiny dude because the smallest are always sold last since people always pick the big ones first. THEN he tells me he can give me a three week old if I want. THREE WEEKS! I said "I feel like that's sort of young for me, don't you?" and he sounded really confident that I would be able to keep this one alive no problem.

(I also feel I should clarify that I did not inquire about a new babe, he just tried to rectify and create solutions on his own. I'm not even certain that I should get another babe from him.)

So, now my feelings are hugely mixed.. I really don't know what to believe with Lucki's age.. I feel like Lucki HAD to be less than a month old if he would offer me a three week old now, right? Like that sounds like just about the worst idea for me ever, doesn't it? Also, how can you have such a beautiful and professional setup in such great shape and not care about the welfare/future of the animals you've bred yourself? I'm not certain if I understood correctly, but it sounded as if I could get a three week old replacement or a lady for free, but would have to pay (half price) for a cham that was older. It's quite possible that all options were half price, but I don't really feel like it was about money. I really have no idea what to think. (I also have no idea what age/size others get their chams at or even where.)

What are your thoughts on all of this?

Also, jajeanpierre, I do not want to post the breeder name or info here or publicly anywhere right now, but if you'd really like to know, you can PM me.

Attaching a photo of just a fraction of the cages I saw.

 

[jajeanpierre]

That is definitely not the breeder I tracked down. And, I agree you should not identify him here.

Regardless, a one-gram baby has no business being in the hands of a novice, especially a one-gram stunted baby. It is quite possible that the baby you bought was the age he said (or he made an honest mistake and had a bin of babies mislabeled) but was stunted for some reason. Babies that are slow growing often die, sometimes later in life. A baby can be the smallest because they are housed in a cage with so many other bigger babies that they don't get enough food. I don't think that baby is problematic once you get it on its own so it can eat freely and catch up. There are also babies that are just stunted and just never seem to thrive. Sometimes babies have a coccidia infection or other type of infection/parasite so they never do well. There are all kinds of reasons a baby would be very small, but bottom line, stay away from anything that is not doing well.

I don't know the size of panthers at hatch or their growth rate. I do know they hatch smaller than the species I breed but grow up to be a similar-sized chameleon. I just looked up the weights on a clutch of mine. I didn't weigh them at hatch, but they hatch at around a gram, maybe 1.2 grams. I believe that is much bigger than a panther at hatch. At about six weeks, I weighed the whole clutch and they ranged in size from 3 to 4 grams. They had at least tripled their weight at six weeks. I would expect panthers to grow at similar rates but I don't know that for sure. At three months I would expect a healthy baby to be a lot bigger than 1 gram.

Don't buy from this breeder. It might be cheaper and you might get a good baby but he was prepared to give you a very small baby knowing you were a novice who would not be able to easily or cheaply find feeder insects and didn't give you the support you desperately needed. His not making sure you had a baby big enough to eat feeder insects that are readily available in pet shops is particularly galling to me. He didn't have the baby or your best interests at heart. I can deal with a one-gram baby because I'm set up for it. I have my feeder insects shipped overnight priortity so it costs me almost $40 shipping for each shipment, but that is spread out over a large number of feeders and a group of chameleons, not a single tiny baby. It isn't that big a deal for me to get food for a tiny baby nor is it a huge financial loss if I lost the entire shipment of crickets because of weather because it is spread over a larger group of chameleons. Compared to my annual cost of feeder insects, one shipment is a drop in the bucket.

I just can't get over the breeder's complete disregard for your money, your time and this baby. How could he allow you to drive two hours and then sell you a baby that I bet he expected would die in your care. Makes me crazy!

Those are my ethics but not everyone's. This breeder runs a business decisions he makes are business decisions. He seems to have structured his business model around getting as many babies out as soon as possible. That's not how all breeders work.

It is very expensive to grow out babies. Selling them small solves a lot of problems for a breeder and increases profit. It shifts the risk from the breeder to the buyer sooner. Caging requirements are cut down. Tiny babies can be housed together in big groups but larger ones need more room and can become pretty competitive for food so the bigger, more dominant ones grow at a faster rate than the smaller ones, exacerbating their size difference. Food is a major expense with babies and there is a lot of wastage. There is not much difference in price between an 1/16" cricket and a 1/2" cricket but I put in a lot more small crickets/feeders per baby than I put in per adult, so per animal a baby is much more expensive to feed on a per animal daily basis. Granted, I am probably wasteful since I want to be sure my babies all have more than enough.

Please don't get a female. They are problematic and generally have shorter life. I'm going to PM you and let's see if we can get you a really nice heathy panther that you can enjoy from Day One instead of just trying desperately to keep it alive.

 

[MaiRemy]

I definitely agree with @jajeanpierre finding another breeder is your best bet. My breeder cared a lot about his chams and even he sold me a 1 month old when I thought it was 3-4 because of miscommunication. We were feeding him big crickets until we realized his age. Thankfully nothing happened and he trained to learn how to chew thoroughly. But it is possible your breeder sold you a baby baby. With that being said, my breeder even sent me calcium supplements to make sure he was getting the nutrients he needed. Any questions or concerns I've had, he was there to respond immediately. Thanks to him, most of remy's minor problems were solved without the help of a vet. In which we have brought him to a vet before because of a small swelling from over supplementing. She didn't notice or say anything and once I confronted her about the problem, she did not know what it was. I bought my beardie from him, which included a big bag full of feeders.but good luck on your next one! They are a joy to raise and watch grow!