Looking for reassurance regarding MBD

[infinityedge]

A friend has a bearded dragon that they didn't give much if any calcium to and wound up with a broken back. Now we are a bit paranoid about our veiled chameleon.

He is about eight months old. His main staple is gut loaded crickets that are sprayed with calcium every feeding, calcium + D3, every week, and a multivitimin every other week. He is currently in the middle of a shedding and isn't eating as much as he normally does and has been spending a lot of time basking

.

What concerns us is the curve to the lower part of his front legs. Is this normal? Does he look healthy to you?

Thanks for any advise you might have.

 

[Kboz1991]

What type of uvb light and bulb do you use?

 

[infinityedge]

What type of uvb light and bulb do you use?

Dual bulb fixture:

1x exo terra 26W CFL UVB

(for heat 1x zoo med 60w daylight bulb for heat)

UV bulb is coming close to needing a replacement.

 

[Kboz1991]

It looks like to me his legs are a little bowed but I'm no expert. They say the CFL bulbs cause eye problems and they throw off uvb in weird directions. I use the linier florescent light myself with 6%. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can give you the right info

 

[kinyonga]

I have to agree...the front left leg looks bent and could indicate MBD.
If it is MBD it needs to be corrected and then appropriate changes made to the husbandry to stop it from coming back.

At SPECIFIC supplements do you use and how often for each? What do you feed/gutload the insects with?
What's the basking temperature?

 

[Kboz1991]

I'm with him. I'd make a vet visit because if it is they can give him a calcium shot to get it back in his bones to stop it from getting worst. If I was you I would get the 3 kinds of repcal without d3 green with d3 pink and multivitamin blue. Use the green without d3 Monday through Saturday and the first and third Sunday use pink calcium with d3 and the second and forth Sunday in the month use blue multivitamin. I would also get yourself a florescent uvb light they aren't to expensive you can get a zoo med 24 inch t5 ho hood off amazon that comes with the 5.0 reptisun lamp with it for 50 bucks. Look up proper gut loading also if you aren't doing so already. I use repashy super load, cricket calcium food like grains, the cricket orange pieces,oranges, apples, strawberries, collar greens, kale, carrots what ever your crickets eat is what your chameleon will eat if you don't do so already. But definitely should get a visit with the reptile vet it never hurts I get mine a checked up every 6 months to a year just to be safe.

 

[Kboz1991]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00AQ...+inch+hood&dpPl=1&dpID=41Oyqr5PbtL&ref=plSrch this is the link to the hood on amazon 52 bucks and it gives you a solid spot to sit your dripper also

 

[infinityedge]

More details:

Better picture of his arm

The vitamins we are using:

In addition to the pre packaged cricket food, we also gut load with spinach, carrots, and occasional fruits.

 

[oneillchameleons]

Check to see if the liquid calcium has any other additives in it such as d3. I would just use your powdered supplements anyway. It's odd because your supplement schedule seems correct, but he is definitely developing MBD. I'd also switch to the linear fluorescent as others have stated here. It just seems to work better.

 

[infinityedge]

He seems to be getting worse and not eating. He is pretty lethargic, but still moving around and being able to hold on.

I'm ordering new bulbs and am going to try to see if he can be force fed food and liquid calcium.

The soonest a local vet can see him and possibly give him a calcium injection is Friday afternoon. The local vet is a good guy, but far from an exotics expert.

The other option is to drive him to UC Davis tomorrow. They are probably as expert as they come (unless I get the student intern or some such), but the problem with that option is the drive is a good 2.5 hrs.

I'm afraid that the travel stress would be really bad for him. But I'm also afraid that waiting 24hrs might also be really bad for him.

Any suggestions on whether the drive is worse or the waiting?

 

[Kboz1991]

I'd rather tale me chameleon to a expert than a dog and cat vet. I would take a drive put him in a cRitter container with a paper towels and go for a ride if you can. It's a hour and 45 to my vet

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

His front legs look slightly bowed. It would be unlikely for that level of MBD, if present, to cause him to lose his appetite or be lethargic. That's generally only seen at more severe stages unless there is a secondary problem.

When I travel with my chams I put them in a small cardboard box with a stick punched through the sides as a low perch. My chams hold onto the perch and just go to sleep while in the dark box so it's not very stressful for them as they're not trying to get out or find a place to hide.

They say the CFL bulbs cause eye problems and they throw off uvb in weird directions. I use the linier florescent light myself with 6%. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can give you the right info

There is nothing wrong with using CFL bulbs. How would they throw off uvb in weird directions? Don't just repeat what "they" say without knowing the reasons behind it. At one time there was a manufacturing problem with the ReptiSun CFL UVB bulbs so that they emitted unsafe levels of UVB and even UVC rays, which corresponded to health problems like eye problems and burns in reptiles. This manufacturing issue was identified and corrected by the manufacturer a decade or more ago and thus we have not seen problems with it since then. The ReptiGlo CFL UVB bulbs were never associated with these harmful effects. The linear ReptiGlo or ReptiSun bulbs have never had any health problems associated with them either. Myself and many other successful hobbyists used CFL's for years without even a single problem to report. Nothing wrong with using linear bulbs, but using a bulb less than 6 months old is more important than the type of bulb.

Also a calcium injection is not necessarily recommended as MBD causes high levels of phosphorus in the bloodstream. Combined with high levels of calcium it can cause dystrophic mineralization, or crystals forming in tissues where it's not supposed to. An injection forces calcium into the body at a rate we determine to be "average" but not necessarily tailored to the individual. Alternatively oral calcium supplementation is much better regulated by the body where it will absorb as much as is needed in a much safer manner without excess like an injection would. I only give calcium injections to gravid females with MBD. Otherwise even my severe cases are treated with oral supplementation (liquid calcium glubionate) and almost all make great recoveries.

What are the temperatures in his cage?

In addition to the pre packaged cricket food, we also gut load with spinach, carrots, and occasional fruits.

All very low calcium. The gutload must be rich in calcium in addition to calcium supplementation and the UVB bulb needs to be 6 months old or less to prevent MBD. Spinach is high in phosphorus and oxalates which prohibit calcium absorption. Carrots and fruits are low calcium. And the flukers supposedly "high calcium" cricket foods are garbage unfortunately. Mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, dandelions are all high calcium (in addition to other good nutrients) and should be staples of your gutload. Everything else is supplemental. Kale is high calcium but also high in oxalates (this varies a little depending on the nutritional analysis resource you look at but majority find higher oxalates than ideal) so can be used in moderation.

 

[infinityedge]

What are the temperatures in his cage?

In the last picture of him there is a black probe hanging under what is his basking spot. It reads 83-84F except during misting (mistking run off a timer).

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

In the last picture of him there is a black probe hanging under what is his basking spot. It reads 83-84F except during misting (mistking run off a timer).

That's a bit low. For a veiled I'd keep it 90-95 at his age. That will help him metabolize food and nutrients better.

 

[infinityedge]

Thank you so much for responding.

He is shedding, but only one leg has shed and the rest doesn't look like it is going. During previous sheds he was lethargic and didn't eat as much, but this is worse. But he is still moving around and even climbing on the screen.

In your opinion, should we try bumping the temperature, start trying to give oral calcium, and see if there is any change tomorrow, or spend all day driving to see a vet we don't have a relationship with?

Another issue is that he really, really doesn't like to leave his habitat. Getting him out no matter what is going to be super stressful.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It wouldn't be wrong to try those things for a few days first. He may be lethargic and basking more because he's just trying to soak up more heat. I'm not sure where you live but this may be especially true if it's cold outside. Even if the basking temperature is good the ambient air even indoors may have more of a chill when it's cold outside. And if he is getting worse or if after a few days he hasn't started eating again then I'd make the trek.

 

[infinityedge]

It wouldn't be wrong to try those things for a few days first. He may be lethargic and basking more because he's just trying to soak up more heat. I'm not sure where you live but this may be especially true if it's cold outside. Even if the basking temperature is good the ambient air even indoors may have more of a chill when it's cold outside. And if he is getting worse or if after a few days he hasn't started eating again then I'd make the trek.

We are high enough elevation that it snows and he could be getting drafty.

Do you have an opinion of which brand of liquid calcium is best, or does it matter?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I usually use calcionate which is a calcium glubionate syrup. Sometimes you can get it online but it looks like it's gone into shortage again as it does every so often. Maybe your regular vet has it?

 

[brownie64]

@infinityedge I believe Beautiful Dragons.com has some for sale.http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Reptilestore.html

 

[infinityedge]

Update:

We added more wattage to the basking lamp, bumping the temp reading to ~94F. The new UV CFL came in and we set up both it and the older one (~5 months old) to cover him while basking.

He finished off the rest of his shed today.

He also ate a bunch of crickets (24, heavily dusted with calcium).

Activity level has been pretty good: he has wandered around the habitat and seems to have good grip strength.

We are going to try to get him out on Saturday to get xrays and see how bad his bone density is and try to get some liquid calcium. We will also be changing our gut loading mix and sticking to just the powdered calcium.

Thank you so much for your help and advise.