Looking for feedback

TylerStewart

Right Wing Extremist
Site Sponsor
I'm looking for some imput from the forum here on an issue that came up yesterday. Here's the long and short of it:

I shipped off 6 chameleons on Monday to various parts of the country. 5 of them got to their destinations in perfect condition. One was claimed to be dead on arrival from a person that claimed dead on arrival the last time I shipped to him. In my entire history of shipping probably over 1000 chameleons, I've had less DOA's than I have fingers on one hand (I think yesterday's was the 4th ever).

I'm not fighting the refund, and I've already issued the refund of the full purchase price of the animal, but I'm wondering if this is a person that I should simply not ship to again based on UPS in his area, or whatever the cause of this is. As I was looking at the pictures, a friend of mine that was over last night saw the pictures and thinks they look like different animals, and thought I should post them online and ask opinions. I wasn't going to argue it, but I'd like some feedback either way. This is a female Mt Meru Jacksons chameleon I shipped UPS Next Day Air in a 12x9x6 insulated box with a large ice pack (Vegas was warm on Monday). She was in a cloth bag surrounded completely with shredded paper.

I'm not saying names, or trying to cause any problems with anyone. The person that this went to is an active member of this forum, so I'm not hiding my concern. The worst thing that will happen is that I just won't sell or ship to this person anymore. I do see differences in the animals, and don't think I will be the only person that sees this. The first picture is one I took the day before I shipped her, the second is the pic I got yesterday on arrival. Any input is appreciated! Like I said, nobody will be called out in public or even in an e-mail over this, so it's for my own personal decision making efforts. Thanks!
 

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Jordan

New Member
I see some differances but it is hard to tell if it is the angle of the picture. The horn on the first picture looks like it comes out straighter. The transition between the top lip and the horn seems smoother. The second picture it comes up more abrupt. The casques look different between the two pictures too. The first picture it comes up rather sharp to a point and the tapers off at less of angle. From the second picture it looks like it comes up to the end at a steep angle the whole way. Can not be sure as the picture angles are different.

The picture of the dead one almost looks like it got hit on the front of the mouth. Either it started to shed or the horn looks like it got pulled forward.

Not really sure if this helps you out or not. Really if you had some more pictures of the chameleon when it was alive it might help you make a better determination. Of course with all the chameleons you have I doubt you take a whole lot of pictures of specific ones.
 

omiga13

New Member
yeah, Im with Jordan post... they look a bite different but it hard to assure cause the pic angel:(
 

FL Chams

Established Member
Site Sponsor
This is a confusing one. The skin that surrounds the horn seems to protrude out further on the DOA one than on the Living one. The DOA one doesn't have a black mark on the belly like the living one. The Nose Rub gets me.....Who knows. Tyler did you rub it's face with sand paper before shipping?
 
The skin surrounding the nose only appears to be protruding farther at the bottom, because the AFTER photo, has the top of the chameleons head touching the table, where the BEFORE photo is a parallel shot.

While I don't want my opinion to be of any value really, lets look at the thumb print of a chameleon; scalation.

 

Crazy Chams

New Member
Hey Will,
Thats an excellant diagram drawn above of the chams scales. But I have to stick with Mike with that rub mark being the most confusing of all. The question that sticks in play is why and how does the DOA animal have a rub mark on its bottom jaw? That just doesnt happen from being shipped in a bag overnight. But who am I to say I guess the purchaser only knows the truth.
 

FL Chams

Established Member
Site Sponsor
I think it's the same animal. I really don't think there's a way to get an animal that close. Just there are some differences, but when a chameleon dies it changes drastic colors almost immediatley. This chameleon is fresh dead. Notice how quick the eyes sink in.
 

TylerStewart

Right Wing Extremist
Site Sponsor
Thanks

Thanks for the feedback... It's not like I don't trust this person, I just have no idea why this would happen twice, on a day that all other shipments were fine. Temperatures were not extreme either way, and I pack in a way that it's physically impossible for a chameleon to get sloshed around or bang into anything. I can hardly blame UPS either, because I've shipped very close to this location before and not had a problem (and if they were drop kicking boxes on a regular basis, I think that driver would have been fired by now). I do not label the boxes "Live Animal" because I feel that it encourages smart-a** people within UPS to "accidentally" drop the box. The other times when DOA have happened with me, it was when UPS delayed it 24 hours in Vegas on a hot hot day, and I knew the animal would be DOA before it was delivered. But shipping to this person, nothing has been an extreme condition, yet they're all showing up DOA. Weird.
 

Laragail

New Member
it looks like the dead one has scales that protrude out on his mouth and a slight ridge at the top of his casque

i guess that could have happened when he died?

maybe they have a crappy mailman....
 
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stevereecy

New Member
Thanks for the feedback... It's not like I don't trust this person, I just have no idea why this would happen twice, on a day that all other shipments were fine. Temperatures were not extreme either way, and I pack in a way that it's physically impossible for a chameleon to get sloshed around or bang into anything. I can hardly blame UPS either, because I've shipped very close to this location before and not had a problem (and if they were drop kicking boxes on a regular basis, I think that driver would have been fired by now). I do not label the boxes "Live Animal" because I feel that it encourages smart-a** people within UPS to "accidentally" drop the box. The other times when DOA have happened with me, it was when UPS delayed it 24 hours in Vegas on a hot hot day, and I knew the animal would be DOA before it was delivered. But shipping to this person, nothing has been an extreme condition, yet they're all showing up DOA. Weird.
Hey, don't know if you noticed, but the dead one seems to have the tip of the tail missing. Or maybe all Jax are like that.

Steve
 

FaunaBgirl

New Member
I studied and saw the like markings too.
When I recieved my cham in the mail, the guy handed it to me with such gusto that there was a solid THUMP sound. I freaked and took it from him exclaimnng that the item inside was alive.....hopefully.
Also, my brother worked for UPS once and he told me stories of how they handled the boxes, for their entertainment. It is possible that mishandling is the reason. I would write a report to that local courrier and have them find the employee that is hard on the mailings. There's always one that has the work ethics of granite rock on a bare butt.
 

flapneck1

New Member
idk but if you shipped the cham in a bag surrounded by paper shreds it is almost impossible for the cham to get a rub mark like that on its chin
 

FaunaBgirl

New Member
Air bags have been known to kill. Nothing is impossible at high impact. I feel sorry for the little cham and I really want someone to follow up on the Vegas end of the postal system/courier involved.
 

Greenstar

New Member
Well just a thought. I got my chams today in the mail, there is a definite toe smudge on the bottom of the box and an indent. One of the chams recieved a small gash on it's side somehow even though it was packed very well and securely in a deli cup. You never know which crackhead on the overnight shift is in a bad mood.

Danny
 

TylerStewart

Right Wing Extremist
Site Sponsor
I really want someone to follow up on the Vegas end of the postal system/courier involved.
I don't think the Vegas end of it has anything to do with this last one. With a problem happening much less than 1% of the time, I feel pretty lucky. I understand that they can get banged up when packed loosely, or in plastic cups, which is why for mid-sized animals and bigger, I almost always use cloth surrounded with shredded paper.

I still don't think it happened in transit... DOA from "abuse" (as opposed to high temperatures) has happened I think twice to me, both were when I shipped it to the same person.
 

Greenstar

New Member
Well you never know, he could have unpacked it and the chameleon made an untimely leap and gone down nose first on the floor. That would explain the nose rub though it definitely is not what I consider DOA.


Danny
 

FaunaBgirl

New Member
Well just a thought. I got my chams today in the mail, there is a definite toe smudge on the bottom of the box and an indent. One of the chams recieved a small gash on it's side somehow even though it was packed very well and securely in a deli cup. You never know which crackhead on the overnight shift is in a bad mood.

Danny
It would NOT be the first time someone has drop kicked a package up to the belt. I'm telling you. Only we, the people can speak up to insure future postals from the idiots that have not been seen by their supervisers, or supervisors that are idiots. It is not acceptable. And you are right... it's maybe a small percentage... in comparison. But it's a monkey see, monkey do world and we loose our standards when we don't speak up. :{
 

Jordan

New Member
I guess I really can not say for sure and my opinion does not seem to lean more one way or the other. I can definately why you posted this.
 

dragonbreeder

New Member
Another thing to consider is that many things can go wrong with the delivery service, such as the possibility of a UPS employee inadvertently overheating the animal by "trying to keep it warm". I once lost a beautiful quad that was on it’s way to me because someone at the post office (who does not understand reptiles) saw "live reptile, keep from cold temperatures" label, and thought they were doing it good to put the box on the radiator. Needless to say, he cooked my quad.

Considering the fact that average USPS and UPS employees do not understand reptiles, it is best to place a label on shippers that states "KEEP FROM EXTREME HEAT OR COLD - KEEP AT TEMPERATURES CLOSEST TO ROOM TEMPERATURE".

Either way, the cause is likely something the shipping service is doing incorrectly with the package at the recipients distribution center. Just another possibility to consider…
 
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