chameleonneeds
Avid Member
How old is she right now, its also good to know her weight? Does she have or has had MBD?
lily & bob ?
- Thread starter andy123
- Start date
joshua n janet
New Member
im not sure how old is she. and she doesnt have it my male was getting it a wile back but now he is really big n strong
andy123
New Member
well ive always thought mbd is something that cannot be cured but can be prevented or calmed down but cannot be gotten rid of completely
so if he did have it then he still has got it but just not showing, if this is the case then he shouldnt be bred
joshua n janet
New Member
well ive always thought mbd is something that cannot be cured but can be prevented or calmed down but cannot be gotten rid of completely
he never had it he was just shaking till i sterted to give him calcium and all that stuff so i shouldnt breed them?
andy123...does your female have an opaque container of washed playsand in her cage so she can dig to show you she wants to lay eggs? The minimum size the container should be is 12" deep by 8" wide by 11" long. By not providing her with a spot to dig she could become eggbound. Also, once a female starts to dig don't let her see you watching her while she is digging.
andy123
New Member
she has a normal sized bucket filled to almost the top (about 1-2inch from top) of eco-earthy stuff for her to dig in
Several people seem to be saying that they have females that appear to already have eggs or ovum present, and have a male but still don't put the male in. Why not?
If your female is sexually mature and in good health, she will start producing ovum. From this point, the healthiest thing that can happen to her is to breed and lay a fertile clutch of eggs.
There are also lots of unhealthy things that could happen to her. Egg binding being the primary concern. If a female is ready to breed and does not do so, she will try to retain the ovum (either on the ovary or in the oviduct) for as long as possible, hoping that a male will come by. After a while one of four things can happen. She can resorb the unfertilized ovum before they are ever ovulated. This is rare, and some people don't believe it occurs at all. Next, she may develop ovum stasis where these ready ovum just sit there on the ovary, taking up space in her coelom and eventually causing other health problems and infertility. Or, she could ovulate these unfertilized ovum into the oviduct and go on to lay an infertile clutch. Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay. Lastly, you could introduce a male in time (while the ovum are still in the oviduct) and have her lay a healthy fertile clutch. Normal fertile clutches are easier for a female to lay than infertile ones.
So my advise is to introduce your males ASAP. If a female has ovum she is telling you something, "I am old enough to breed please!" If your male is too young, the worst that happens is that he doesn't get the job done.
Even if she doesn't breed, you need to provide her with an egg laying tub so that she can get rid of those infertile eggs.
If your female is sexually mature and in good health, she will start producing ovum. From this point, the healthiest thing that can happen to her is to breed and lay a fertile clutch of eggs.
There are also lots of unhealthy things that could happen to her. Egg binding being the primary concern. If a female is ready to breed and does not do so, she will try to retain the ovum (either on the ovary or in the oviduct) for as long as possible, hoping that a male will come by. After a while one of four things can happen. She can resorb the unfertilized ovum before they are ever ovulated. This is rare, and some people don't believe it occurs at all. Next, she may develop ovum stasis where these ready ovum just sit there on the ovary, taking up space in her coelom and eventually causing other health problems and infertility. Or, she could ovulate these unfertilized ovum into the oviduct and go on to lay an infertile clutch. Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay. Lastly, you could introduce a male in time (while the ovum are still in the oviduct) and have her lay a healthy fertile clutch. Normal fertile clutches are easier for a female to lay than infertile ones.
So my advise is to introduce your males ASAP. If a female has ovum she is telling you something, "I am old enough to breed please!" If your male is too young, the worst that happens is that he doesn't get the job done.
Even if she doesn't breed, you need to provide her with an egg laying tub so that she can get rid of those infertile eggs.
Good to hear.
A lot of people just don't seem to realize that even single females need laying tubs. In mammals, no sex = no babies, so I understand where it comes from.
A healthy female should be able to pass infertile clutches without problems, so the fact that yours are doing this speaks well to your husbandry. Its when you start adding on other stressors that it starts getting risky.
However if you have chams of both sexes, in my opinion it would be better for your females to breed and lay fertile clutches (which you can toss if you don't want them) than to keep producing infertile ones.
Let us know what happens, and be sure to have the camera handy when you put them together.
A lot of people just don't seem to realize that even single females need laying tubs. In mammals, no sex = no babies, so I understand where it comes from.
A healthy female should be able to pass infertile clutches without problems, so the fact that yours are doing this speaks well to your husbandry. Its when you start adding on other stressors that it starts getting risky.
However if you have chams of both sexes, in my opinion it would be better for your females to breed and lay fertile clutches (which you can toss if you don't want them) than to keep producing infertile ones.
Let us know what happens, and be sure to have the camera handy when you put them together.
Sorry I misread your post above, I thought that this female had laid two previous infertile clutches. If she is 15 months old, has never laid anything, and looks full of eggs, she may have one of the static conditions mentioned above. Not definite by any means, but just something to keep in the back of your mind if your breeding plans aren't going as expected.
Miss Lily
Chameleon Enthusiast
She's fine. She doesn't look full of eggs - I see lumps occasionally. She is acting her normal happy/grumpy self and is still eating and drinking. I have no concerns with her at all. I did plenty of research before I got my first female, and they always have everything they should have. I love my chams to bits - they are treated like family.
zwhitman said..."If your female is sexually mature and in good health, she will start producing ovum"...I have kept veiled females since before 1995 (and other chameleons for years before that) and veiled females can live to be over 7 years old without ever producing an egg, without ever suffering from follicular stasis or dystocia or other health issues.
(There was a study done concerning reproduction in veiled females over the last 2+ years, I will have to look to see how many of they suffered from either problem....if the information was presented in the study.)
You said..."If a female is ready to breed and does not do so, she will try to retain the ovum (either on the ovary or in the oviduct) for as long as possible, hoping that a male will come by"...how long do you feel they can hold onto the eggs before they have problems? Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
You said..."Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay"...why should infertile clutches be more problematic to lay?
(There was a study done concerning reproduction in veiled females over the last 2+ years, I will have to look to see how many of they suffered from either problem....if the information was presented in the study.)
You said..."If a female is ready to breed and does not do so, she will try to retain the ovum (either on the ovary or in the oviduct) for as long as possible, hoping that a male will come by"...how long do you feel they can hold onto the eggs before they have problems? Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
You said..."Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay"...why should infertile clutches be more problematic to lay?
>>>I have kept veiled females since before 1995 (and other chameleons for years before that) and veiled females can live to be over 7 years old without ever producing an egg, without ever suffering from follicular stasis or dystocia or other health issues.
I didn't say females will either breed or die! But have you ever ultra sounded any of your females to see if they have any follicular development? I would bet that at certain times of the year, that they do. Without the right stimulus they may never develop very far and regress. The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure.
>>>There was a study done concerning reproduction in veiled females over the last 2+ years, I will have to look to see how many of they suffered from either problem....if the information was presented in the study.
I would love to read it if you find it.
>>>how long do you feel they can hold onto the eggs before they have problems? Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
They can not hold EGGS for very long at all without having significant problems. Eggs are large, usually shelled, and lined up one behind the next, inside the tissue paper thin oviduct. They can not be resorbed from there. If they don't come out in a timely fashion they can adhere to the oviduct and require surgical removal or the female will die.
But follicles are still attached to the ovary and they grow and shrink in response to hormones and other reproductive stimuli. They can get fairly large and make a female get pretty large looking. I would imagine that this happens to some extent in most healthy females and I would think that if you knew the right hormones to look for that you might find evidence of this. Like I said I would like to read that study.
You said..."Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay"...why should infertile clutches be more problematic to lay?[/QUOTE]
Infertile eggs frequently are smaller, weirdly shaped, stuck together, different textured, less turgid etc. In my experience females of just about all reptiles have more problems with them.
I didn't say females will either breed or die! But have you ever ultra sounded any of your females to see if they have any follicular development? I would bet that at certain times of the year, that they do. Without the right stimulus they may never develop very far and regress. The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure.
>>>There was a study done concerning reproduction in veiled females over the last 2+ years, I will have to look to see how many of they suffered from either problem....if the information was presented in the study.
I would love to read it if you find it.
>>>how long do you feel they can hold onto the eggs before they have problems? Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
They can not hold EGGS for very long at all without having significant problems. Eggs are large, usually shelled, and lined up one behind the next, inside the tissue paper thin oviduct. They can not be resorbed from there. If they don't come out in a timely fashion they can adhere to the oviduct and require surgical removal or the female will die.
But follicles are still attached to the ovary and they grow and shrink in response to hormones and other reproductive stimuli. They can get fairly large and make a female get pretty large looking. I would imagine that this happens to some extent in most healthy females and I would think that if you knew the right hormones to look for that you might find evidence of this. Like I said I would like to read that study.
You said..."Infertile clutches are much more problematic to lay"...why should infertile clutches be more problematic to lay?[/QUOTE]
Infertile eggs frequently are smaller, weirdly shaped, stuck together, different textured, less turgid etc. In my experience females of just about all reptiles have more problems with them.
You said..."I didn't say females will either breed or die!"...I realize that..I'm just saying that they don't have to produce eggs and this lessens the possibility of them having reproductive issues.
You said.."But have you ever ultra sounded any of your females to see if they have any follicular development?"...no, I don't have access to an ultra sound machine....and I haven't taken any to my vets to have that done because its expensive and since my chameleons didn't have any issues I didn't feel it was necessary. I would have gladly allowed them to check out my chameleons though if they had wanted to for a study.
You said..."I would bet that at certain times of the year, that they do. Without the right stimulus they may never develop very far and regress"...what might the stimulus be? Isn't it possible that they might not produce them at all if the right hormone stimulus wasn't there?
You said..."The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure"...when they reach a point where they can't regress is where the problem lies IMHO and finding out why at this point stasis often occurs is important. I don't know of a study that has determined why the follicular stasis occurs. I also don't know of anything that will start the movement back up again.
You said..."I would love to read it if you find it"...I will look for it tomorrow.
Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
You said..."They can not hold EGGS for very long at all without having significant problems"...I didn't think so.
You said...."Eggs are large, usually shelled, and lined up one behind the next, inside the tissue paper thin oviduct. They can not be resorbed from there. If they don't come out in a timely fashion they can adhere to the oviduct and require surgical removal or the female will die"...yes, I know this.
I said..."Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?"...do you know anything about the hormones or the levels at various times throughout the cycle with chameleons that are having difficulties?
You said..."follicles are still attached to the ovary and they grow and shrink in response to hormones and other reproductive stimuli" I know about the hormones that occur as the cycle continues but have never seen hormonal evidence that indicates regression.
You said..."They can get fairly large and make a female get pretty large looking. I would imagine that this happens to some extent in most healthy females and I would think that if you knew the right hormones to look for that you might find evidence of this. Like I said I would like to read that study."...the study does show some hormones and levels.
You said..."Infertile eggs frequently are smaller, weirdly shaped, stuck together, different textured, less turgid etc. In my experience females of just about all reptiles have more problems with them"...I don't recall seeing mishaped ones or ones that are stuck together although they can have a different texture. Not sure of the word turgid...does it mean bloated/swollen? If so are you referring to ones that have been retained too long?
You said.."But have you ever ultra sounded any of your females to see if they have any follicular development?"...no, I don't have access to an ultra sound machine....and I haven't taken any to my vets to have that done because its expensive and since my chameleons didn't have any issues I didn't feel it was necessary. I would have gladly allowed them to check out my chameleons though if they had wanted to for a study.
You said..."I would bet that at certain times of the year, that they do. Without the right stimulus they may never develop very far and regress"...what might the stimulus be? Isn't it possible that they might not produce them at all if the right hormone stimulus wasn't there?
You said..."The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure"...when they reach a point where they can't regress is where the problem lies IMHO and finding out why at this point stasis often occurs is important. I don't know of a study that has determined why the follicular stasis occurs. I also don't know of anything that will start the movement back up again.
You said..."I would love to read it if you find it"...I will look for it tomorrow.
Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
You said..."They can not hold EGGS for very long at all without having significant problems"...I didn't think so.
You said...."Eggs are large, usually shelled, and lined up one behind the next, inside the tissue paper thin oviduct. They can not be resorbed from there. If they don't come out in a timely fashion they can adhere to the oviduct and require surgical removal or the female will die"...yes, I know this.
I said..."Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?"...do you know anything about the hormones or the levels at various times throughout the cycle with chameleons that are having difficulties?
You said..."follicles are still attached to the ovary and they grow and shrink in response to hormones and other reproductive stimuli" I know about the hormones that occur as the cycle continues but have never seen hormonal evidence that indicates regression.
You said..."They can get fairly large and make a female get pretty large looking. I would imagine that this happens to some extent in most healthy females and I would think that if you knew the right hormones to look for that you might find evidence of this. Like I said I would like to read that study."...the study does show some hormones and levels.
You said..."Infertile eggs frequently are smaller, weirdly shaped, stuck together, different textured, less turgid etc. In my experience females of just about all reptiles have more problems with them"...I don't recall seeing mishaped ones or ones that are stuck together although they can have a different texture. Not sure of the word turgid...does it mean bloated/swollen? If so are you referring to ones that have been retained too long?
>>>I'm just saying that they don't have to produce eggs and this lessens the possibility of them having reproductive issues.
You are right they don't have to have eggs to be healthy, that is not what I was trying to say, but I could see how I implied it. I just think that if you see a female that is obviously bloated with something and you don't know weather or not they are still on the ovary or in the oviduct, I would breed that female. Many females will never blow up like that. I guess there is a part of me that just hates seeing all that energy wasted on a dud clutch too!
I didn't expect anyone to actually spend money ultra sounding healthy females on their own. It was more of a rhetorical question. I do have some access and I will see how easy it would be to sneak a few pictures of some of my chams.
As far as stimuli... Most stimuli are hormonally controlled. But many hormones are environmentally controlled too. Like melatonin levels changing in response to day length. Or cats that ovulate only when they are stimulated by penetration. I am not sure in chams. It would not surprise me if the sight of a male was enough to change things up a bit.
>>>You said..."The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure"...when they reach a point where they can't regress is where the problem lies IMHO and finding out why at this point stasis often occurs is important. I don't know of a study that has determined why the follicular stasis occurs. I also don't know of anything that will start the movement back up again.
Yes this is key. Unfortunately our lack of knowledge about endocrinology means most of these become surgical cases when something goes wrong.
>>>Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
Hormones are only part of the picture. They may or may not have abnormal hormones. Often hormone levels are great to use in normal females, but when problems start, you never know what you will see. A female that is truly egg bound may loose all of those hormones that are telling her to lay eggs. Oxytosin levels drop after a few hours and she is just stuck there with static eggs.
Also, I don't know that anyone knows enough about veiled chameleon hormones to judge any of this. Keep in mind that testing for hormones in a laboratory is a lot different than in a clinical setting. I may be wrong but I sure don't know.
As far as infertile eggs... Texture is really the most important difference. If you ever get the chance to see a surgery (or unfortunately a necropsy) you would be amazed at how thin the oviduct membrane is. It doesn't seem possible that such a delicate tissue could contract and move the giant egg along. If there are any abnormalities here, like a lack of lubrication if the female is dehydrated, or an egg that is just barely rougher than it should be, this could spell major problems. Again, not for everyone, just increases the chances of something going wrong. Thats when I get to see them. I am aware that being in a vet hospital makes one paranoid. Sorry!
You are right they don't have to have eggs to be healthy, that is not what I was trying to say, but I could see how I implied it. I just think that if you see a female that is obviously bloated with something and you don't know weather or not they are still on the ovary or in the oviduct, I would breed that female. Many females will never blow up like that. I guess there is a part of me that just hates seeing all that energy wasted on a dud clutch too!
I didn't expect anyone to actually spend money ultra sounding healthy females on their own. It was more of a rhetorical question. I do have some access and I will see how easy it would be to sneak a few pictures of some of my chams.
As far as stimuli... Most stimuli are hormonally controlled. But many hormones are environmentally controlled too. Like melatonin levels changing in response to day length. Or cats that ovulate only when they are stimulated by penetration. I am not sure in chams. It would not surprise me if the sight of a male was enough to change things up a bit.
>>>You said..."The problem comes if they grow too large and can't/don't/won't regress. This does happen commonly enough, but by all means is not the majority of females. Why some? I am not sure"...when they reach a point where they can't regress is where the problem lies IMHO and finding out why at this point stasis often occurs is important. I don't know of a study that has determined why the follicular stasis occurs. I also don't know of anything that will start the movement back up again.
Yes this is key. Unfortunately our lack of knowledge about endocrinology means most of these become surgical cases when something goes wrong.
>>>Wouldn't this retention be indicated by hormonal inconsistencies with chameleons that don't hold on to the eggs? Wouldn't the hormones dictate whether she could retain them or not?
Hormones are only part of the picture. They may or may not have abnormal hormones. Often hormone levels are great to use in normal females, but when problems start, you never know what you will see. A female that is truly egg bound may loose all of those hormones that are telling her to lay eggs. Oxytosin levels drop after a few hours and she is just stuck there with static eggs.
Also, I don't know that anyone knows enough about veiled chameleon hormones to judge any of this. Keep in mind that testing for hormones in a laboratory is a lot different than in a clinical setting. I may be wrong but I sure don't know.
As far as infertile eggs... Texture is really the most important difference. If you ever get the chance to see a surgery (or unfortunately a necropsy) you would be amazed at how thin the oviduct membrane is. It doesn't seem possible that such a delicate tissue could contract and move the giant egg along. If there are any abnormalities here, like a lack of lubrication if the female is dehydrated, or an egg that is just barely rougher than it should be, this could spell major problems. Again, not for everyone, just increases the chances of something going wrong. Thats when I get to see them. I am aware that being in a vet hospital makes one paranoid. Sorry!
You said..."I just think that if you see a female that is obviously bloated with something and you don't know weather or not they are still on the ovary or in the oviduct, I would breed that female"...I think it could do more good than harm. It could very well push the process along.
You said..."there is a part of me that just hates seeing all that energy wasted on a dud clutch too!"...I often feel that way too.
You said..."I do have some access and I will see how easy it would be to sneak a few pictures of some of my chams"...that would be interesting to see!
You said..."It would not surprise me if the sight of a male was enough to change things up a bit"...it does with some chameleon species (I can't say for all of them, of course).
You said..."Hormones are only part of the picture. They may or may not have abnormal hormones. Often hormone levels are great to use in normal females, but when problems start, you never know what you will see. A female that is truly egg bound may loose all of those hormones that are telling her to lay eggs. Oxytosin levels drop after a few hours and she is just stuck there with static eggs"...for things to not follow a normal path (for stasis, dystocia to occur) I just feel that the hormone levels have to reflect a problem in some way.
You said..."Keep in mind that testing for hormones in a laboratory is a lot different than in a clinical setting...can you explain this a bit more please?
You said..."you would be amazed at how thin the oviduct membrane is"...I've seen the oviduct membrane a few times over the years and I was amazed! I don't know how anyone can surgically remove the eggs and leave it intact!
I can certainly see why eggs could have problems if there was a lack of lubrication or any roughness to the egg shell.
Most vets get to see them when they are already in trouble! I've been paranoid a few times when I've been in with my vet for the surgeries! Its a good thing for me in that respect that I'm not a vet!
The study was to try to understand and show the reproductive hormones in female veiled chameleons as well as show how this related to ovarian activity. MRI's and egg production along with external signs (skin color and behavior) were involved.
You said..."there is a part of me that just hates seeing all that energy wasted on a dud clutch too!"...I often feel that way too.
You said..."I do have some access and I will see how easy it would be to sneak a few pictures of some of my chams"...that would be interesting to see!
You said..."It would not surprise me if the sight of a male was enough to change things up a bit"...it does with some chameleon species (I can't say for all of them, of course).
You said..."Hormones are only part of the picture. They may or may not have abnormal hormones. Often hormone levels are great to use in normal females, but when problems start, you never know what you will see. A female that is truly egg bound may loose all of those hormones that are telling her to lay eggs. Oxytosin levels drop after a few hours and she is just stuck there with static eggs"...for things to not follow a normal path (for stasis, dystocia to occur) I just feel that the hormone levels have to reflect a problem in some way.
You said..."Keep in mind that testing for hormones in a laboratory is a lot different than in a clinical setting...can you explain this a bit more please?
You said..."you would be amazed at how thin the oviduct membrane is"...I've seen the oviduct membrane a few times over the years and I was amazed! I don't know how anyone can surgically remove the eggs and leave it intact!
I can certainly see why eggs could have problems if there was a lack of lubrication or any roughness to the egg shell.
Most vets get to see them when they are already in trouble! I've been paranoid a few times when I've been in with my vet for the surgeries! Its a good thing for me in that respect that I'm not a vet!
The study was to try to understand and show the reproductive hormones in female veiled chameleons as well as show how this related to ovarian activity. MRI's and egg production along with external signs (skin color and behavior) were involved.
Last edited:
andy123
New Member
ARGGGHHHHH its dont a thread to just keep going "YOU SAID" "I SAID" "WE BOTH SAID" it was just a simple question which needed a simple answer not a arguement or an essay of an answer
everybody has their own methods which work for them and others may not like that method and choose to do it another way, as long as the animals are healthy and looked after propally, does it really matter what you think about someone elses methods
SHEESHH take a chill pill please
everybody has their own methods which work for them and others may not like that method and choose to do it another way, as long as the animals are healthy and looked after propally, does it really matter what you think about someone elses methods
SHEESHH take a chill pill please
I just meant that if you have a population of laboratory animals where you know their baselines and normals, and you have a grant to afford whatever tests you need to to find the information you are looking for, you have a lot of freedom. Just because someone at some university knows how to test chams for hormone levels does not mean that a simple and cost effective test exists for your vet to buy and have around the hospital. And even if there was a test that you could send to a lab, how valuable would it be to a sick cham if the results took a few days to get back?
And I am chill. I thought this was a cool conversation. Congrats on the breeding activity too! Sorry for the thread hijack.
And I am chill. I thought this was a cool conversation. Congrats on the breeding activity too! Sorry for the thread hijack.
lisagr07
Avid Member
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
They're mating as we speak, bob didnt even have to impress her with changing colours he just saw her and she stopped still and waheeyyy off he goes
and life goes on!!!!!!
congrats and good luck!!!!!!!!!
lisa
