L eating with Syringe

[thiago1311]

It's been almost 2 months that L is not eating well.
At first he lost his appetite and when he tried to eat a cricket or mealworm he could not launch his tongue out.

I took him to the vet and they said that it could be missing out phosphorus because the calcium level was normal and there was no type of parasite that was causing such a problem.

I changed the bulb UVA / UVB and started to give more Vitamin D3 to him, was that the veterinary told me to do.

I started to feed the L syringe with convalescence support instant royal canin, the veterinary said it was better for the reptile than those made for reptile

Now he can launch the tongue but only 2 or 3 times, then he can not launch out anymore.

Maybe it's just the winter, because it all started with the arrival of winter


Here's a video that I made with L eating with a Syringe:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frE61hNLADw&feature=youtu.be

 

[ataraxia]

I know you mean well and understand i am not bantering you. Just food for thought, literally. From watching the video the animal can not say "Hey bro, can i get smaller bites?". If you were dependent on someone to feed you and they stuffed your mouth with thick liquid. Its going to be a tough time. I know we dont have all the time in the world and patience is what is lacking but give him smaller quantities at a time.

When reading what your vet suggested as therapy. Before knowing what type of chameleons you own. I said to myself "This has to be a veiled". They are a hardy animal but can only take so much before a build up takes over and causes hardships. I know you love your animal and dont want anything to happen to him. Feeding him royal canine dog food is going to hurt your animal. It is composed of animal protein and preformed vitamins. This will take its toll. I would strongly suggest replacing the dog food with smashed up bugs. This is more natural for the animal.

The lack of shooting his tongue could have been from other reasons if his blood chemistry was fine. When they stated "could be" that tells me they are guessing. I have been wrong so many times in my life its hard for me to say i guarantee but i do find it pretty hard this animal had a lack of phosphorus knowing that 90% of prey options out there are imbalanced with phosphorus being higher than calcium. He may have injured his tongue some how and it is healing on its own. It could have been from his diet also but please dont think you need to shovel preformed vitamins into him to compensate as it may have not been the source of the problem all along. I would highly recommend getting him on a regular supplementation schedule along with bugs instead of dog food.

 

[Devokid]

In addition to what ataraxia said, you should find a new vet. They should not be treating your chameleon like a dog.

 

[symphonica]

Completely agree with others.

Watching the video, I was concerned about him aspirating and choking on such a big volume of thick paste. You should really just put a drop on the tip of his tongue.

Another reason for inability to shoot his tongue could be a neurological problem. It's hard to determine exact cause without knowing his exact history and the care he has been receiving, previous diet and supplementation.

Would your cham eat a cow or lamb in the wild? That's essentially what you're saying he eats by treating him as a dog.

 

[thiago1311]

I'm not treating him as a dog, the vet did blood tests and poop then she saw that the D3 and phosphorus levels were low.

There are not many veterinarians specialized in exotic animal here in Lisbon, I'm taking L on the best there is.


She said that this Pope has given better results in reptiles than those that are made for them.


It's true that I'm giving too much food with little time to digest it, I did not think it's was a problem because he has never shown getting stressed or grumpy.

He has gotten better since the beginning of treatment, are already two months he is eating this pope and helped him earn some weight and more energy.
Every week I have taken him to the vet to see if get better. It was one or two weeks without eating until I take him to vet and today he gets 2 days off pope he eats some mealworn.

The only problem now is the tongue.

 

[Psychobunny]

I am surprised he is not fighting you while injecting the food into his mouth.
Looks like he is very cooperative!
I wish my chams were like that!
I have to hold Squee down for pipette feeding, and he struggles and tries to
get away.

 

[fluxlizard]

I'm going to disagree with what others have said, and say my experience with assist feeding is that I prefer to feed more at once, but I don't use the kind of assist feeding you are doing.

Instead, I gently but firmly hold the chameleon by it's head and shoulders with one hand, allowing the body to dangle below. The position is nose to sky, straight line down the body so that it is dangling perpendicular to the floor.

In this position, the chameleon will have a suprisingly wide throat and it is a straight line to the stomach- the syringe can be very gently slid (stop at any sign of resistance) all the way down the throat to the stomach. A chameleon that size can *easily* be given 3 ccs of food in one go (and a 3cc syringe will slide right down the thoat easily too), using a steady, fairly rapid press on the syringe. Would take 3-5 seconds to press in.

The syringe is then gently slid back out, and the chameleon encouraged to sit quietly with nose slightly elevated for a few minutes. Enough can be given so that the lizard will not need another meal for 24 hours this way in one go.

I would do this at night when lights are about to go off or already off. This allows the chameleon to sleep off any stress, and to have a full stress-less day the next day before the next feeding. If fed during the day, the animal will stress the remainder of the day until it sleeps again.

I've done this many times with really excellent results on recent imports that required extra care.

I don't have any opinion one way or the other on what the vet prescribed. Short term, it may be better than what is available in your country, I've no idea.

I used a slurry made of gerber baby food (chicken), unflavored yogert with live acidophilus, and pedialyte with a tiny bit of reptivite mixed in. Worked great for my chams in the past. But I only assist fed for a period of about 10-14 days depending on how I was treating them with other meds.

And I'm sorry, but if people think that a factory out there is grinding up insects as part of a commercial assist feed forumulation for insect eating lizards they are fooling themselves. They are using formulations based on the ingredients for other animals, and then tweaking them some for insect eaters. There is nothing "natural" about these sorts of formulations and you could expect the protein source in these formulations to be the same whether for an insect eater or carnivore... Extreme circumstances sometimes require compromises...

 

[fluxlizard]

Oh one last tip for the OP- continue to try and tempt with insects. The assist feeding should get him feeling a little peppy- and then he will probably start hunting on his own. Bowl feeding will not require a tongue, and you can mix veggies in with the insects for more variety of food in the bowl.

Once he starts feeding on his own, consult with your vet again, but I'd suggest continuing to assist feed for a few days, and then stop and let him get his own food after he shows that he is able and willing a few times...

 

[symphonica]

I have a chameleon with "no tongue" and he's never had a problem feeding. I put the insects in a small bowl and he scoops them up. A healthy chameleon should still have the natural instinct to launch at moving things that will fit in their mouths.

 

[ataraxia]

Fluxlizards disagrees as his method is getting past the glottis. Which is the concern with the current method...The OP is not past the opening it breaths from.

IMO, The info supplied is good for someone experienced ONLY. Knowing where the glottis is, size of syringe and knowing a safe amount to size of an animal would also be useful. Yes you can generally give more but you can still give to much...

Much easier for a newer keeper to put a tip of a syringe at the front of the mouth and administer a couple drops, allow the animal time to swallow and repeat. Patience is all that is needed.

Also, to touch on formulation for "OTHER ANIMALS". Thats states it right there. Do you give cat food to a ferret? Sure many do this and what happens...Do whats best, not what you want to just throw in. Buy what is formulated for your animal or "Make" a concoction that is close to your animals natural diet.

 

[symphonica]

Fluxlizards disagrees as his method is getting past the glottis. Which is the concern with the current method...The OP is not past the opening it breaths from.

IMO, The info supplied is good for someone experienced ONLY. Knowing where the glottis is, size of syringe and knowing a safe amount to size of an animal would also be useful. Yes you can generally give more but you can still give to much...

Much easier for a newer keeper to put a tip of a syringe at the front of the mouth and administer a couple drops, allow the animal time to swallow and repeat. Patience is all that is needed.

I agree - unless you have experience, I don't suggest you just shove a syringe (or anything) down a chameleon's throat. It could certainly cost you the life of your cham if you don't do it correctly.

 

[Adriane1979]

Hand feed

My Cham was showing signs of mbd and I started hand feeding I used tweezers and pinched the head of the meal worm, rubbing her lips with it till she opened her mouth and simply put the worm in her mouth. With the addition of a couple drops of liquid calcium and today she eats all on her own again.

 

[thiago1311]

So what?
I should let him die?
It's 2 Months now, if I've do something wrong he has to be died at the first syringe.
I'm pretty sure that the way I treat my cham is better than a lot of people I see here And around, my Veiled shows a behavior very calm And peaceful in all the ways, there is not so many like my here or where else, because I do know how to treat a cham.

 

[ataraxia]

I have come across completely wrong and i apologize. It is great you are taking care of your animal the best you can. Good luck.

 

[fluxlizard]

I don't suggest you just shove a syringe (or anything) down a chameleon's throat.

Nobody suggested that.

I went to great lengths to caution that the procedure needs to be gentle.

It is certainly far less stressful than badgering a chameleon for 20 or 30 minutes to get it to eat a drop of something at a time.

Buy what is formulated for your animal or "Make" a concoction that is close to your animals natural diet.

Take a look at the ingredients on the labels of formulated diets and compare and see a) how "natural" the diet formulation is (there will be no insects at all) and b) how insectivore ingredients compare with carnivore ingredients. Many veterinarians use "carnivore care" from oxbow quite successfully for treating all their insectivorous lizard patients. This formulation is for all carnivores.

As for my formulation- I've proven it works effectively on several occasions. The most extraordinary was when I got a group of a dozen "bottom of the barrel, probably going to die" melleri from an importer one time. They were severely dehydrated and emaciated and heavily parisitized. I cleaned them up and used the formulation I described for 2 weeks to assist feed all 12, while still offering a few insects. At the end of 2 weeks all had gained significant weight- some more than doubling their weight at the start. The first breedings I ever did with melleri came from this group which were sold to me for almost nothing because they were thought to be almost certain to die- and looked it on arrival.

I've used the formulation for other insect eating lizards over the years as well that required assist feed, and other groups of recently imported chameleons back when I treated groups in a "shotgun" fashion of worming and sometimes using flagyl as an antibiotic (if the animal is weak and emaciated when using flagyl I assist feed my formulation for the duration of treatment- it helps with hydration, provides energy and keeps the digestive system active and provides acidophilus for the gut fauna that is destroyed by the flagyl) and acclimation and had really great results.

That was then this is now- I no longer purchase large groups of fresh imports, and if I did, I'd use a commercial product. But I would still use my tried and tested home formulation for individual animals that needed the help if the situation arose. Because it has always worked really really well...

And yeah- I assist fed my formulation using the procedure I described of gently inserting the syringe way all the way down and did it very safely and minimized stress and harassment of my lizards unlike pestering assist feed methods...

Lastly, kindly remember that the OP has sought advice from the very best veterinarian that he could find ("the best in his country"). It would be kind of foolish to disregard that veterinarian's advice completely without consulting another veterinarian...

IMO, The info supplied is good for someone experienced ONLY. Knowing where the glottis is, size of syringe and knowing a safe amount to size of an animal would also be useful. Yes you can generally give more but you can still give to much...

Much easier for a newer keeper to put a tip of a syringe at the front of the mouth and administer a couple drops, allow the animal time to swallow and repeat. Patience is all that is needed.

Good points. Sometimes I forget what is easy for me may not be easy for everyone.

Also for the OP- seems like after 2 months it might be a good idea to try to get the lizard bowl feeding on it's own...
Assist feed really isn't a good long term solution, and in spite of my defending your veterinarian's advice, neither is dog food...
My comments about formulation should be taken from the perspective of assist feeding for a couple of weeks tops... For most lizards, that should be enough to turn things around to where it can feed on it's own in spite of difficulty...

 

[symphonica]

So what?

I should let him die?

It's 2 Months now, if I've do something wrong he has to be died at the first syringe.

I'm pretty sure that the way I treat my cham is better than a lot of people I see here And around, my Veiled shows a behavior very calm And peaceful in all the ways, there is not so many like my here or where else, because I do know how to treat a cham.

I'm not sure where you got the feeling as though we're suggesting you just watch him die... I'm rereading all the posts and I'm not seeing anything that alludes to that attitude, but I'm sorry if you mistook something and interpreted it as such.

Nobody suggested that.

I went to great lengths to caution that the procedure needs to be gentle.

It is certainly far less stressful than badgering a chameleon for 20 or 30 minutes to get it to eat a drop of something at a time.

It's not about how gentle or rough the syringe is put down there. It's knowing the correct placement of it to make sure it's actually getting directly into their stomach.

Unless you can take responsibility for guaranteeing that a chameleon isn't going to aspirate while attempting this method, as long as you're being "gentle," I would not just post this as advice for a newbie, without accompanying it with fair warning and disclaimer that although this method is effective, it should only be attempted with those with experience, as it can have grave consequences. Improper placement leads to aspiration, which can literally drown them to death very quickly, or cause a RI. You don't want somebody to attempt your method because you've written that it's far less stressful and that you just have to be gentle and careful, only to have them do it wrong where their chameleon aspirates, the substance is coming back out of their nose, choking, and it's dead the next morning, or they have to take it to the vet's and it costs them $, where that individual ultimately comes back to blame you for suggesting this method to begin with. There is nothing worse that drowning your chameleon to death with your own hands - trust me, I've done it before (ironically while trying this method with water for a severely dehydrated cham years ago, as a newbie)

I think putting the syringe and therefore liquid into where it shouldn't be and aspirating them would be much more stressful than being prodded for 20-30 mins. If you weren't feeling well to begin with and didn't have an appetite, would you rather have soup put on your tongue a drop at a time, or have them pump it, accidentally leaking some into your lungs, where you're choking and it's coming back out of your nose?

OP, if you're going to perform this method, make sure your vet teaches you the proper way to do this. Have him/her show you using your cham.

 

[jannb]

I'm very sorry to hear that L has not been eating. I hope that you know me and trust me enough to believe me when I tell you that dog food is bad for L. Please try hand feeding him (up close) some worms and crickets. Allot of my older guys were not able to shoot their tongue anymore and some would open their mouth a little so I could put a feeder in and others I had to open their mouth and put a feeder in and when they were almost finished chewing I'd slide in another feeder....depending on the size and type of feeder I often do this several times until they have had the perfect size meal. If you can get silkworms there, they are excellent to use at times like this. If you absolutely can't get him to eat like this then mash up the feeders and slowly feed them via the syringe. I'm sending my best wishes to you and L.

 

[fluxlizard]

Unless you can take responsibility for guaranteeing that a chameleon isn't going to aspirate while attempting this method, as long as you're being "gentle," I would not just post this as advice for a newbie, without accompanying it with fair warning and disclaimer that although this method is effective, it should only be attempted with those with experience, as it can have grave consequences. Improper placement leads to aspiration,

I'm sorry- but maybe my post should come with a disclaimer- that it should not be criticized by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

LOL

You obviously have no idea and just gave your ignorance away when you revealed your ignorance of chameleon anatomy-

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the airway is at the rear of the mouth on the rear of the tongue and is so tiny that you cannot possibly hope to ever get a syringe down it.

The throat on the other hand is after the airway and is very large, and a syringe slides very very easily down it.

My method places the syringe a few inches past the airway and the food is delivered safely directly into the gut.

Drop it into the mouth like you want and yes indeed an animal can aspirate. As you have proven firsthand. Put it in the stomach and it won't happen.

How do I know? I've done it many times and not just typed about it on the internet.

 

[symphonica]

I'm sorry- but maybe my post should come with a disclaimer- that it should not be criticized by someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.

LOL

You obviously have no idea and just gave your ignorance away when you revealed your ignorance of chameleon anatomy-

If you knew what you were talking about you would know that the airway is at the rear of the tongue and is so tiny that you cannot possibly hope to ever get a syringe down it.

The throat on the other hand is very large, and a syringe slides very very easily down it.

My method places the syringe a few inches past the airway and the food is delivered safely directly into the gut.

Drop it into the mouth like you want and yes indeed an animal can aspirate. As you have proven firsthand. Put it in the stomach and it won't happen.

How do I know? I've done it many times and not just typed about it on the internet.

My bad, guys. I apologize to all the beginners on this forum. It is absolutely safe and recommended that you force feed your chameleon by pushing the syringe down into their stomachs and expelling the liquid contents into it, in large amounts, as long as you are "gentle." I will start a thread in the health section, publicly apologizing the fluxlizard for questioning his methods, and will copy in paste his exact procedure that he shared in this thread on how to perform this procedure. There's absolutely, 0% chance of them aspirating, so no need to worry about that, and it's very safe and easy, so you won't mess it up. Just make sure you are gentle.

 

[fluxlizard]

Glad you see it that way now

Funny how I was shown this way by a couple of different veterinarians.

Hey I've got an idea- why don't you please explain how you can do the physically impossible and shove a syringe down a tiny airway that is too small to allow it to enter, yet get it in there a few inches?

Edit- You can believe what you want, but if you open the mouth of your chameleon and take a look, the airway is the tiny opening attached to the top of the rear of the tongue. If you aim instead for the great big cavernous opening- that is the throat and there is no way to drown unless things exit the throat back up into the rear of the mouth. My way moves places everything safely past the airway. Veterinarians use it or some variation with tubing to extend the length every day when assist feeding. It *is* simple and easy to do, I learned it passively from watching my father and a few other vets do it (my father taught at a vet college and so most of my friends were veterinary families) without having everything spelled out to me and got it right easily on first try and every one of dozens of tries since that first time decades ago, but I do forget that there are humans who should not attempt even simple and easy things. I forget that all the time and suppose I needed reminding.

As for volume- 1 cc or even 3 ccs will be less volume than a good meal of crickets for this lizard. Not what I would define as a "large volume". 1cc per day I would think would amount to slow starvation.

This whole conversation is bordering on stupid at this point. Sorry I got involved.

Plus the OP already had his mind made up about what he was going to do and how he was going to do it before he even posted. This thread was totally not worth it...