Kitty and Agnes

[Brad Ramsey]

From the clutch that Agnes laid 7/04/08 after her first encounter with Kitty, there are but a handful of eggs left that may actually result in hatchlings.
I have revised my ideas on copulation and incubation, and believe that quite low temperatures for the first several months, combined with the idea that I may not have allowed them sufficient time/opportunity to execute a truly successful mating experience are the reasons for this low percentage of what I hope to be viable eggs.
This week Agnes has been displaying some truly brilliant receptive colors and so today I introduced Kitty to her enclosure.
They are both 10 months older than the last time this was attempted and the connection happened in less than a minute.
They are still together, she is now displaying gravid coloration, but is not acting aggressively toward him and is in fact allowing him to mount her again.
I am going to leave them together until it is obvious that she no longer wants him around.
I plan to incubate the resulting eggs at 76 to 80 degrees from day one and for the entire time.
I have built an incubator (the current eggs are in there now) out of a styrofoam cooler with a small aquarium heater in a sealed vessel of water at the bottom and the egg containers sitting on top. The temperature in the egg container has stayed within my new desired range for a few weeks and I am confident that I will have different results with this arrangement.
The eggs from last July (there are 12 remaining) are white and have grown considerably although I can determine nothing by candling.
I think they must be good, they are 8 months old, but only time will tell.

-Brad

 

[blackbetty]

Peeping Brad!

Good luck!

 

[Ricardo]

Good luck Brad!!!! Wish you the best

Could you put some pictures about the incubator you built??? if its not top secret ofc. I'm very interested in diy things like this

Ricardo

 

[Julirs]

Why such high incubation temps?

I never could get any idea from candling...

 

[jannb]

They both look beautiful in the picture! Good luck with the eggs.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Why such high incubation temps?

I never could get any idea from candling...

After speaking with more than one person, it seems to be the range that people are having repeated success with.
What were your incubation temps again?

Lynda says she can never determine anything by candling veiled eggs either.

-Brad

 

[Eric Adrignola]

This was her first clutch, correct? I have had good luck with havign viable eggs, almost every time. For some reason, I have had females lay bad eggs on their first clutch. They're fertile and all, but they're less calcified than they should be considering the female's health. Sometimes they hatch no problem, other times they all just crap out late in incubation. Weaker shells, I guess. I had recently, two sisters, raised together, mated at the same time, laid eggs nearly at the same time - one laid 32 eggs, the other 29 eggs. One clutch was perfect, one slightly yellowish. The yellow eggs all died after 5 months of incubation, the others are still going. The one that laid the yellow eggs was bigger and stronger, and seemed in perfect health. Rock solid.

I've had bigger babies when the temps never got above 80, and I wouldnt' say it's high. I just try to keep it close to 74-75 degrees, and a little above or below doesnt' hurt a bit.

Were all these eggs fertile?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I'm not sure if they were all fertile.
Yes it was her first clutch after a mating.
She had laid a non fertile clutch at the beginning of last year that was really her first.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Here are some pics that describe the incubator better than I could explain it.
The heater is a small one designed for a 5 gallon aquarium.
The pictures from left to right are the layers from bottom to top.

-Brad

 

[Ricardo]

Here are some pics that describe the incubator better than I could explain it.
The heater is a small one designed for a 5 gallon aquarium.
The pictures from left to right are the layers from bottom to top.

-Brad

Thanks Brad! Looks interesting, and awesome!

 

[Julirs]

9 months at a steady 72-75 degrees (room temp), and it worked out great!

 

[Titan]

I have to put some info out that may be useful to you all or not. Years back I used to breed Veilds, and with to my astonishment was very successful, with about 90% hatch rate on viable eggs laid.
Not to step on anyones toe. but here is what I did. Incubated at 82 degrees with a nightly temp drop down to 76 degrees at about 95% humidity. and almost every clutch hatched within six months. The way to drop night temps were, having incubators in a dark closet with a annual temp kept in there at 76 degrees, for when the day incubator timer was off. (The Inside incubator heater that kept the day temps at 82 degrees was on a timer.)
I'll be honest, I had over 200 (healthy) Baby Chams in my spare room, from three simultanious clutches. and wow, was I busy with that! after that I sold all them off, thank God. Unfortunatly my female died eggbound on her fourth clutch.
Just some info that might help the Veild owners out there,
Take Care, Mike

 

[chamelisa]

Peeping Brad!

Good luck!

LOL Look who's peeping! I swear you can see me through that avatar.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for these remaining eggs to hatch out for you, Brad.

I get so frustrated when eggs fail. But even worse is when they are fertile and they don't survive. I use the mini-frige/warmer for incubating eggs.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

They're still going at it.
This picture documents a third solid connection.
mmmmmm chameleon porn

-Brad

 

[veiledchamguy]

They're still going at it.
This picture documents a third solid connection.
mmmmmm chameleon porn

-Brad

lol jeeze they get down to the bizznasty

 

[Eric Adrignola]

The only thign is, a six month incubation usually results in smaller, less robust babies. If you keep the temps below 80, but fluctuate them at night, the incubation takes 7-8 months, and they hatch out huge. Mine are eating 1/4" crickets after a week. Some of them eat them as their first meal. When I incubated them higher, going up to the mid 80's, they only took 6 months. But they were on pinheads and fruitflies for a few weeks.

Hatch rates are usually high (90%+, health of the female and eggs being equal), as long as temps are between 70 and 85 degrees. The higher you go, the faster they hatch, the lower, the slower they hatch. Slow=big, fast=smaller. Go a little too high or too low, and you have lower hatch rates. My eggs got a bit too cold this winter due to a malfunction in the heater, and I lost some. interestingly, the ones that madei t were really really sturdy. Weeded out the weaker ones, maybe? hehe.

 

[Sancho]

Female has very nice colors!

 

[Chameleon Company]

Brad,

Eric A writes:
I had recently, two sisters, raised together, mated at the same time, laid eggs nearly at the same time - one laid 32 eggs, the other 29 eggs. One clutch was perfect, one slightly yellowish. The yellow eggs all died after 5 months of incubation, the others are still going. The one that laid the yellow eggs was bigger and stronger, and seemed in perfect health. Rock solid.

Wanted to stick in a few thoughts after reading your initial post, and also thought Eric illustrated a good experience.

Regarding breeding, and allowing multiple matings, I can't give you data about whether or not multiple matings improve fertility and hatch rates, as I don't have such data. However, more than one mating is common between compatable chameleons in the initial 24-48 hour breeding period. It can't hurt. We allow it to occur here, as you propose, keeping the pair together for up to 48 hours, so long as they remain compatable.

In our experience, while a diapause may better regulate incubation duration, we have concluded that it does not affect hatch rates.

Eric's point illuminates part of the great enigma about successfully multiplying these animals. One animal to the next, all influences that we know of can be as similar as possible, and the outcomes completely different. We have literally hundreds of examples, sibling animals, carbon copy husbandry provided, and results quite dissimilar between sisters.

On the upside, if this were significantly less challenging, how many of us would do it

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Ok, sorry - huge post but I'm bored and I ain't got no job no more.

another thing - multiplematings may very well increase fertility of the clutch. My old man was around 8 years old, and he still managed to fertilize everything - but I have always practiced the dangerous, yet interesting "keep them together as long as she wants to be near him" ever since keeping veileds in a 12x8x8 cage outdoors. The pair stayed together* for the entire time - from mating to just before she laid her eggs. So, I try to replicate that indoors, with some success.**

A clutch can have a fertility problem, but individual eggs are either fertile or infertile (if it's a lethal combination of genes, it's a goner, but it has been fertilized). If you had a bunch of eggs go bad within the first couple weeks, more matings may help. If they lasted months, and were fertilized (cut them open and have a look) when they died, the problem could be any number of things - too much moisture (killed my first clutches of 67 and 65 eggs from a WC pair when 2 week old babies were going for $125 a piece - but I learned.), temps (tricky, as the variations can cause unforeseen problems***).
Health of the parents, calcium and vit/min balance being a factor, stress causing her to lay the eggs before they were fully calcified (not sure if it this happens, but maybe).

*They stayed far apart most of the time - 5-6' or more, occationally going closer. Durig the post-copulation time, they were always closer. They slept next to each other sometimes - always in the male's territory. She had 12' of planted cage to move around in, but she stayed at the end he was at, up high, next to him in his prime basking areas. I observed (consentual) mating several times a week, form the first mating till a day or so before egg laying. She seemed perfectly happy, too.

the other female stayed away, as normal, until it was her turn. My guess is in the wild, males learn to respect the black yellow and blue colors of gravid females, and leave them alone. The females, with colors on, can safely bask in the high branches unmolested, as the males don't pester her as much. I think it's learned, because males that tried to mate with unreceptive females were "discouraged" by them, and later on were very cautious, gentle males -they never rushed females, but approached them doign the full courtship dea. other males, raised alone, simply attack and mate with anything - som eof you have gloves that can attest to this. I'd like to see a real study on this, as a learned behavior in lizards is kinda cool.

**The cages inside cannot provide enough space to keep them together long term. I often knew when it was time to separate them when it got violent. It doesn't work for more than a few days usaully unless you have a walk in size cage.

*** I used a closet to incubate a lot of my eggs. One year, she laid them at a different time of year. They incubated during the late winter, spring and summer. This closet got way too hot, too early, and my lizards hatched out around 5.5 months. Good size, sturdy little guys, but their eyes weren't finished. The opening was normal on the poterior part of the eye (fused eyelind and all), but the front of it was open all the way to the edge of the eyeball. It was as if the eyelid had developed like a normal (non chameleon)animal, with fused lids opening up, then they zip shut from the back to the middle and the front to the middle, leaving only the opening we see - but the temp problems caused them to hatch before they zipped shut. Obviously, there were other problems, as they were not able to eat.

I was hopnig they woudl eventually eat, otherwise I'd have killed them. Sadly, they died, but the crazy thing was they took over 2 weeks to die, active the whole time. Tough little buggers.

 

[addicted]

They're still going at it.
This picture documents a third solid connection.
mmmmmm chameleon porn

-Brad

Wow that's quite the acrobatical position they are in there

Hopefully this clutch will prove to be more successful for you, Kitty sure seems to be putting in that extra effort