Is this possible? Did I do the wrong thing?

Belle

Member
My 10 month old Panther girl, Hatty, laid her first clutch of 26 eggs about six weeks ago, having been gravid colours for about a month. I removed the infertile eggs the next day and she went back to normal very quickly, and shed a week later. However, within a couple of weeks she was showing gravid colours again, and for a month now has behaving in a similar way - always wanting to be out of her viv (she laid last time in a pot plant, despite having more suitable bins). She is sluggish and off her food and has also become quite clumsy. However, although she is definitely fatter, I cannot feel anything in her tummy that resembles eggs or follicles. Is it possible that she is about to lay again so soon? And did I do the wrong thing in removing her eggs? Some birds will lay another clutch if the first is removed, so has she been triggered to lay more because the first lot have gone?
 

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janjan20

Chameleon Enthusiast
I am not experienced with females or panthers but I know that temp and how much you feed females play a factor. If you fill out the questionnaire the more experienced keepers should be able to give you better advice. @Kristen Wilkins @Matt Vanilla Gorilla @GoodKarma19
Chameleon Info:
  • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  • Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
  • Location - Where are you geographically located?
Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

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Please Note:
  1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
  2. Photos can be very helpful.
 

GoodKarma19

Chameleon Enthusiast
It sounds to me like a vet visit is in order. I'm no expert, but to my knowledge it's possible for a female to lay a clutch every ~3 months, but with how Hatty's acting (sluggish, clumsy) there's a possibility that she didn't lay all of her previous clutch and could be at risk of binding. The only way to tell for sure is an x-ray. If you have the time, filling out the help form @janjan20 posted could allow us to identify possible husbandry issues.

Removing her eggs wouldn'thave prompted her to lay more, no. As you mentioned, that's only with select birds (double-clutching). :)
 

Kristen Wilkins

Chameleon Enthusiast
It sounds to me like a vet visit is in order. I'm no expert, but to my knowledge it's possible for a female to lay a clutch every ~3 months, but with how Hatty's acting (sluggish, clumsy) there's a possibility that she didn't lay all of her previous clutch and could be at risk of binding. The only way to tell for sure is an x-ray. If you have the time, filling out the help form @janjan20 posted could allow us to identify possible husbandry issues.

Removing her eggs wouldn'thave prompted her to lay more, no. As you mentioned, that's only with select birds (double-clutching). :)
Hello @Belle I’m sorry to hear your girl is not feel to good . I agree with @GoodKarma19 a vet visit is in order . Sounds like she may not have laid all eggs . Only way to be sure is x-rays . Could you please fill out the care sheet that @janjan20 provided please . It’s helpful for other keepers . @Matt Vanilla Gorilla or @jannb can either of you chime in ??.
 

Belle

Member
  • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Felmale blue bar ambilobe Panther aged 11 months
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Every day
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Crickets, locusts, calci-worms/soldier flies. occasional super-worm (1-2 per week) Gutloaded with Repashy bug burger, fruit and veg.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Minerall 2-3 times a week. Reptivite without D3 once every other week, Calcium carbonate daily
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Mister 3x a day before 2pm. She used to drink off a stick when I had a dripper, but don't see her drink now, although she never looks dehydrated.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
No parasite test performed. Faeces good size and solid shape but quite soft when picked up, with white urates
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Bought from someone who had her as a baby, handled daily and unafraid of humans. Have kept schedule he instituted but upgraded details of her cage so she has more cover, and she has a free range indoors and in greenhouse.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  • 2x Reptibreeze XL attached to form one large viv

  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? 100w Reptile Systems basking light on Habistat dimmer. Arcadia Pro T5 UV, Nighttime in winter Arcadia heat radiating lamp.

  • What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • 12 hr on 12 off but long days in the UK right now extend those hours. Hatty prefers to go to bed around 2-3 hours before her lights go off, so the longer daylight hours may be an issue. I do try to make things dark for her but not 100% successful

  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  • Basking max 90. Ambient 68-70. Low winter 60. Summer 65
  • Digital thermometer/hygrometer and probe for dimming thermostat is mid-viv

  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  • Misting keeps humidity at around 80-90 during morning, then drop off to abut 60 per cent pm. She also goes outside at times where humidity is low (30-40 %) but I do mist her there
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

Yes. Pothos, ficus, umbrella plant
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Cage in bedroom, occasional traffic only. Dog in house that Hatty doesn't like but she wasn't this colour before despite this. 24 inches off floor. Daily access to free range at ceiling height.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located?
Wales, UK

Pix attached to show viv and of Hatty before she laid her first clutch.
 

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Kristen Wilkins

Chameleon Enthusiast
  • Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Felmale blue bar ambilobe Panther aged 11 months
  • Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Every day
  • Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Crickets, locusts, calci-worms/soldier flies. occasional super-worm (1-2 per week) Gutloaded with Repashy bug burger, fruit and veg.
  • Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Minerall 2-3 times a week. Reptivite without D3 once every other week, Calcium carbonate daily
  • Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Mister 3x a day before 2pm. She used to drink off a stick when I had a dripper, but don't see her drink now, although she never looks dehydrated.
  • Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
No parasite test performed. Faeces good size and solid shape but quite soft when picked up, with white urates
  • History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
Bought from someone who had her as a baby, handled daily and unafraid of humans. Have kept schedule he instituted but upgraded details of her cage so she has more cover, and she has a free range indoors and in greenhouse.

Cage Info:
  • Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
  • 2x Reptibreeze XL attached to form one large viv

  • Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? 100w Reptile Systems basking light on Habistat dimmer. Arcadia Pro T5 UV, Nighttime in winter Arcadia heat radiating lamp.

  • What is your daily lighting schedule?
  • 12 hr on 12 off but long days in the UK right now extend those hours. Hatty prefers to go to bed around 2-3 hours before her lights go off, so the longer daylight hours may be an issue. I do try to make things dark for her but not 100% successful

  • Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
  • Basking max 90. Ambient 68-70. Low winter 60. Summer 65
  • Digital thermometer/hygrometer and probe for dimming thermostat is mid-viv

  • Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
  • Misting keeps humidity at around 80-90 during morning, then drop off to abut 60 per cent pm. She also goes outside at times where humidity is low (30-40 %) but I do mist her there
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?

Yes. Pothos, ficus, umbrella plant
  • Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Cage in bedroom, occasional traffic only. Dog in house that Hatty doesn't like but she wasn't this colour before despite this. 24 inches off floor. Daily access to free range at ceiling height.
  • Location - Where are you geographically located?
Wales, UK

Pix attached to show viv and of Hatty before she laid her first clutch.

I’m not seeing anything that really stands out . Basking is with in suggested range . Personally for my females I keep basking temps under 85 .

How often are you feeding ? And how many feeders ?
 

Belle

Member
Thanks everyone. Trouble with my phone so excuse delays.
Hatty usually has about 5-6 4th gen brown crickets per day and a locust or two or a few calciworms. But in the past week she is only really having about one or two feeders a day and is most interested in super worms (morios)
 

GoodKarma19

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'd suggest cutting Hatty down to every other day feedings. More food = bigger clutches! Lower basking temps may also reduce clutch size. Like Kristen, i've been keeping my girl in the 85F range.

Otherwise, I don't see any obvious husbandry faults. I'd bring her to an experienced reptile vet and have an xray taken. Hatty is clearly well loved, and it's refreshing to see! I have a soft spot for the girls.
 

Belle

Member
Thank you all. I’ve booked the earliest possible vet visit on Wednesday.

Just to be clear, Hatty has always had a lay bin in her viv but chose to lay in a pot plant in a window sill.

Thanks for your kind words GoodKarma. I adore Hatty. My only other female, Boo, died after getting eggbound and I swore I’d never have another girl but the seller of the viv gave her to me ‘for free’ because he was stuck otherwise. Hatty’s very special. I spent £400 on her in the run-up to her first clutch and would happily spend the same again. Lucky she was free!
 

Kristen Wilkins

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'd suggest cutting Hatty down to every other day feedings. More food = bigger clutches! Lower basking temps may also reduce clutch size. Like Kristen, i've been keeping my girl in the 85F range.

Otherwise, I don't see any obvious husbandry faults. I'd bring her to an experienced reptile vet and have an xray taken. Hatty is clearly well loved, and it's refreshing to see! I have a soft spot for the girls.

I agree with the little girls I go with 3 days a week . Once I know eggs are in production I do to 2 till they lay . Harry sure is a beautiful ❤️.
 

GoodKarma19

Chameleon Enthusiast
Yes I have probably over-fed her. She’s a bit of a hog! I will certainly cut back as soon as she is well again. X

It's so easy to overfeed them, too! Lily, my lady panther, always acts like she's starving - though she's clearly not! I think she'd eat 10+ feeders a day if I let her. Lily has 3 "big" feeding days (equivalent to 5-7 large crickets) a week, and gets a couple treats by hand on her "off" days to tide her over cause I'm a pushover (and I just love hand feeding!). I also throw some black solider flies/other flying insects in there as they pupate for her to snack on and provide hunting enrichment, as well as exercise her tongue.

Keep us posted on the vet visit! Hoping for the best,

~Amanda
 

SharpShooter

Avid Member
Rose laid a 1st clutch of 30 and her second clutch of another 30 only 6 weeks later.

I keep temps to 81-82 and feed every 2 days. I've got her next date on the calendar IF it's 6 weeks again, although I hope it won't be.
 

Belle

Member
Took Hatty to the vet yesterday and had her scanned. She did indeed have several big follicles. Because she hadn't had time to recover from her first clutch and was starting to fall and lose interest in food, the vet advised spaying while she was still strong enough to withstand the surgery. She came through it fine (so far) and seems very well this morning. I won't miss the worry about her becoming gravid, but it's an expensive and risky option and not to be taken lightly.
 
It seems like a great set up with a beautiful female. I'm fairly certain too much food is the culprit. I do 3 crickets a week 5 days a week, to keep Mango happy but not actively laying. If we up food just a little bit she goes into egg laying mode.
Yes I have probably over-fed her. She’s a bit of a hog! I will certainly cut back as soon as she is well again. X
 
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