is this advised?

[Ryan Jarosek]

This is basically what a few people i know did. However, this is very expensive and these are VERY knowledgeable breeders with easily 10 years of experience and they follow very strick rules in order to make their chameleons happy. However, yes, this is something i will be trying to reproduce in 5 to 10 years.

For example, they reserved one room for males and one room for females. They do not introduce juveniles into the group, and they make sure to ensure that all chameleons are very different in color. Don't ask me why for the different colors because i don't know!

Also, when it's time to add a new chameleon into the group, they can take up to a week or two to make sure they will get along well. However, sometimes, it will simply not work and they put them back into single enclosures for the rest of their lives.

Now, the reason why I tell people that chameleons must be alone in single enclosure is because beginners do not own the proper knowledge to raise multiple chameleons into the same enclosure and wouldn't put the money to have a proper facility.

Finally, if you plan on doing like them, you should be aware that they covered the floor with concrete, and then planted trees and plants, in front of big windows...and much more.

Very interestng , sounds like a great setup

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Ryan, since I've been on this forum, everytime someone ask or implies that they are housing 2 chams together, people freak. I'm not saying that Todnedo said he advised it or it was okay, just quoted "what" he said. This in my opinion tells new members that it's "not as bad as one might think". I understand that experienced keepers that know what they are doing, may practice this, but for new cham owners, it's dangerous. Just my opinion and I don't want to start a debate.

I agree with you as well. What I tend to see on forums is that "this is the way it is" kinda statements. Thats what I am trying to avoid.

I would not recommend to anyone to do it , but if it works and people have success I would love to hear about it.

I think thats what I am trying to say.

 

[morpheon]

Another way of keeping chameleons is what French people call "semi-liberté", which i could translate into " barely free ".

The principle is simple: they put vines, plants, drippers, lamps (including UVBs) everywhere in a room or two and let a few chameleons (not a lot this time, maybe up to 4, depending on the installation) live freely in it. Then, they have the opportunity to roam around wherever they want, something that Furcifer Pardalis loves.

Then again, these installations have very strict rules to follow. You can let them sleep into their own single enclosures and let them come out when you want, or simply let them sleep where they want.

Living in the middle of a few chameleons is something their owners love, but it has their part of negative aspects, such as poop, even though most chameleon poop always at the same place...

The electricity is expensive too, since you have to heat up the whole room instead of a few enclosures. You also have to have several lamps and UVBs everywhere. Otherwise, they could get sick.

Of course i am not stating everything and this is not my point. I just wanted to let you discover a completely different world than yours, which can be very satisfying IF you have the skills and money for it!

 

[Olimpia]

That's really interesting.
So, lets say that in my living room, or whatever large room, I set up two different free range areas on opposite walls for my panthers to explore for a short time x days. If I put one in each area, would they try to get across and fight each other? Or would they be fine, with each his own territory? Just out of curiosity, and for future reference.

 

[morpheon]

That's really interesting.
So, lets say that in my living room, or whatever large room, I set up two different free range areas on opposite walls for my panthers to explore for a short time x days. If I put one in each area, would they try to get across and fight each other? Or would they be fine, with each his own territory? Just out of curiosity, and for future reference.

It depends of your animals. Some may hate each others, some may not. It takes a good dose of experience and observation.

EDIT: Being under supervision is something i recommend when trying it. And this is something i will be doing when i'll get the setup i want!

 

[morpheon]

I agree with you as well. What I tend to see on forums is that "this is the way it is" kinda statements. Thats what I am trying to avoid.

I would not recommend to anyone to do it , but if it works and people have success I would love to hear about it.

I think thats what I am trying to say.

What you say is very interesting. This is something i have seen a lot and i partially agree with it.

My conclusion is this : for exceptional breeders, i see no problem in modifying things and living on the edge of all the exceptions. However, beginners and average breeders must NOT try that because they do not own the proper knowledge to do it. Also, beginners don't have the proper backups in case of rejection, which experienced and skilled breeders usually do.

For example, i read some guy who decided, with his first chameleons (a couple of Calyptratus) to raise them together in the same enclosure. While this is something POSSIBLE to do, my main concern is that a beginner does't have the knowledge to notice when they should be separated or not. However, please, do not try to raise a couple together because this is something even more difficult that the setups i have stated before. This is very risky and can go wrong in a very short amount of time!

I would finish this post by saying that EXPERIENCED breeders may NOT be skilled. In the scientific litterature, experience has NOT been linked or correlated (associated) to skill. So don't think that with 10 years of experience you are automatically better than something with less than a year of experience!

 

[Carlton]

I agree with you as well. What I tend to see on forums is that "this is the way it is" kinda statements. Thats what I am trying to avoid.

I would not recommend to anyone to do it , but if it works and people have success I would love to hear about it.

I think thats what I am trying to say.

Exactly. I think we are most concerned with forum searches that dig up misleading threads or the the "typical" newbie posts:

a) asking if they can house that two-fer cham deal from a pet shop in the same cage
b)they only have money, space, or time to set up one cage
c) the post describing health problems showing up in a pair housed together.

Not everyone on this forum "freaks" when posters ask about housing chams together. Newbies searching only for the information they want to hear are going to misinterpret posts about successfully housing chams together. It is irresponsible for us to recommend shared housing in the typical minimal cage because most often it DOESN'T work out and the owners are faced with health problems, vet bills, and dying chams. We don't want that!

Sure, you can probably house a small group of panthers loose in a room given enough space, basking spots, feeding bins, water sources, hiding areas, but that takes a lot of dedication, observation, time and $$. But all it takes is one really good bully to ruin it. Those vibrant colors are vibrant because of stress, not necessarily optimum health.

 

[morpheon]

Exactly. I think we are most concerned with forum searches that dig up misleading threads or the the "typical" newbie posts:

a) asking if they can house that two-fer cham deal from a pet shop in the same cage
b)they only have money, space, or time to set up one cage
c) the post describing health problems showing up in a pair housed together.

Not everyone on this forum "freaks" when posters ask about housing chams together. Newbies searching only for the information they want to hear are going to misinterpret posts about successfully housing chams together. It is irresponsible for us to recommend shared housing in the typical minimal cage because most often it DOESN'T work out and the owners are faced with health problems, vet bills, and dying chams. We don't want that!

Sure, you can probably house a small group of panthers loose in a room given enough space, basking spots, feeding bins, water sources, hiding areas, but that takes a lot of dedication, observation, time and $$. But all it takes is one really good bully to ruin it. Those vibrant colors are vibrant because of stress, not necessarily optimum health.

I couldn't have said it better! Great post!

 

[gpmo]

This is a very fascinating conversations, with some great ideas. I know we have talked about a room designed for multiple chams, and other herps. (way way way in the future).

I am very interested in finding more information on wild habitiat and understanding how they work in their territories and how large those territories are. How far does a cham travel in a day and or move around. How many chams are in a set area in the wild. Of course this all varies by species i am sure.

Being able to create the most natural habitat in captivity is the high point of keeping herp IMHO ( and breeding) Of course there will be some differences, as i am sure most of you would agree it would be fairly lame to create a super natural habitat for you cham then introduce a house cat to simulate predator .

Anyhow just rambling now, thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences folks.

Gpmo (him)

 

[Carlton]

I am very interested in finding more information on wild habitiat and understanding how they work in their territories and how large those territories are. How far does a cham travel in a day and or move around. How many chams are in a set area in the wild. Of course this all varies by species i am sure.

There has been very little research done on wild cham territoriality and behavior amazingly. How wild chams group themselves is going to depend on many factors...the specific local habitat structure (density of trees, understory shrubs, lighting, temperatures, humidity ranges), time of year, amount of available food, presence of other species competing for food and territory, as well as the cham species. If a group of wild chams is in a marginal poorer quality habitat their territorial behavior may be very different than that of a group in prime habitat.

Any captive situation isn't going to be very comparable to the wild (but we don't really know all that's missing). And on top of that, cbb animals are going to behave differently too.

 

[gpmo]

Any captive situation isn't going to be very comparable to the wild (but we don't really know all that's missing). And on top of that, cbb animals are going to behave differently too.

I agree that we can't provide a 100% natural habitat and that CBB will be reacting differently. But providing a close approximation to natural habitat is possible. The more study we do on natural environment the better our captive husbandry will be. Accounting of course for the differences you stated.

 

[Todnedo]

I wouldn't house more than panther together unless they are raise together from a very young age. They seem tolerant of one another but there will be weaklings and alphas that will have to be housed separately from the rest. Careful observation must be made to identify each very early. Failing to do so will result in nature weeding out the weak ones for you.
Some alpha male panthers simply do not tolerate other males within sight and will actively go after and attack them.
It is best to keep Chameleons housed separate and out of sight of each other.

 

[draetish]

There really is no Black and White with this issue because there are so many variables. I must add that inexperienced cham owners are asking for trouble when housing more than one cham together, even male and female. This should be left to the more experienced keepers who are able to devote a lot of time on a daily basis. Meaning keeping a watchful eye on the cham's reactions to each other and knowing the signs of trouble.

 

[kangaroo]

Very interesting conversation. Thought pravoking to say the least.

 

[Todnedo]

Those are all male panthers and this guy is a dumba**. Those feeders are too big, they don't look dusted, and as you can see, the others are submissive. This is not natural as chams are solitary animals. Looks like a bad dream to me and is totally unacceptable.

Did you change your mind or read something on the web?

 

[Olimpia]

It's very interesting. I think it would be amazing, to say the least, to have a huge enclosure with a couple gorgeous male panthers coexisting together. Talk about colors! I'd love to be able to see that. Are there no photos of these set-ups that we can see?

 

[draetish]

Did you change your mind or read something on the web?

No. Me, personally would never attempt this, to me it's too high risk. However, I am open minded.