is this advised?

[Darwin]

i just searched 'chameleon cup feeding' on you tube and this was the first link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_qo6iWu28

this guy has at least 6 chameleons living together, is this advised? and what chams are they?

really intrigued by this!

 

[draetish]

Those are all male panthers and this guy is a dumba**. Those feeders are too big, they don't look dusted, and as you can see, the others are submissive. This is not natural as chams are solitary animals. Looks like a bad dream to me and is totally unacceptable.

 

[Todnedo]

If they are raised together its not as bad as one might think despite what you have read on the net. You don't use supplements at every feeding.
The size of the feeder look fine to me. He could use more than one feeding cup.

 

[Olimpia]

Having 6 or more chams in one cage is waaaay too crowded. There's no way each one of them can hide if they want to be alone because there are probaby 2 brothers in each hiding spot! The feeders don't look too big to me, but yes, he could have spaced out more dishes.

I hope no one decides this is a good idea to save space!

 

[Darwin]

so i guess litter mates could live together but its not a good idea

while i'm here, i've just cleaned my cham out and he seemed a lot calmer than normal when handling him. he walked straight onto a branch i was holding then up my arm to my head. i put him on a 6ft yukka tree whilst cleaning then get him back off with the branch. he seemed either really relaxed or something wrong as he normally runs to get onto your head, but he just sat on my hand and rested his head letting me take lots of pics. he's been a bit darker than usual too brightening up when i got him out.

his viv is kept around 28c/84f during the day and drops 5-10 degrees at nights. his uv is a repti-glo 5.0. i mist him twice daily keeping the humidity between 50-70 and feed him on gutloaded (kale, cabbage) and dusted locusts (we won't eat crickets or wax worms, the only other feeders i can get locally) i've done this since getting Darwin last june when he was 4 months old making him around 12 months.

am i doing anything drastically wrong?

 

[fowlers]

not happy with that guy who filmed that, you shouldnt keep males together even if were brought up together! there should be a cup for each cham in a vivs, there should be multiple basking spots, each cham would make their own territory in that viv and it didnt look like there was enough room for a pair!!

when the blue one (nosy be i think)was eating you could see the other cham behind (ambilobe) was in defensive posture (may have been the camera scaring him too) but was defo from the other males in the cage!!!!

rob

 

[glaceauz]

i saw the youtubers other videos, and he's just treating his chams terribly, http://www.youtube.com/user/EdensOasis in the main video he's purposely pissing off his chameleon and stressing it.

 

[ChamOh]

man he's got some pretty vibrant blood lines tho. not encouraging mistreatment if that's what's really going on though.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

If they are raised together its not as bad as one might think despite what you have read on the net. You don't use supplements at every feeding.
The size of the feeder look fine to me. He could use more than one feeding cup.

I agree ...

 

[ChamOh]

If they are raised together its not as bad as one might think despite what you have read on the net. You don't use supplements at every feeding.
The size of the feeder look fine to me. He could use more than one feeding cup.

Interesting! You always hear about them being "solitary creatures." They certainly do look very neat all together like that--like a herd of male panthers I guess if they are raised from young together and don't show signs of aggression, have adequate space and regulation of food, this may not be so bad?

 

[Dsignrguy]

I'm extremely surprised at what I see...My first reaction is to say its a bad thing(and I still don't think its advisable), However look closer at the condition of the Chams. They all look pretty dang healthy to me. as for the feeders.....them are small. Remember, these guys can devour a full grown hornworm with no problem......gulp!

There is ALLWAYS an exception to the rule.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

To answer your question, no, it would not be advised.

Nasty Blatta lateralis

-Brad

 

[morpheon]

Chameleons aren't as solitary as you guys think. You can read in the litterature that Furcifer Pardalis can be seen in a small groups.

In fact, Chamaeleo dilepsis, Chamaeleo chamaeleon, namaquensis, Chamaeleo (Trioceros) cristatus, montium are really lonely chameleons, but others aren't necessary.

These species; Furcifer pardalis (R. Tremper, pers.com), lateralis (W. Schmidt, 1985), Chamaeleo (Trioceros) affinis (Necas, 1995), bitaeniatus (Bustard, 1996), Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard & Madsen 1984, Toxopeus et al 1988), Chamaeleo calyptratus (Necas, 1990, 1991, 1995), Bradypodion thamobates (Langerwerf 1992, Raw 1976), have been cited to live in dense colonies, up to one chameleon per square meter. Also, some of them, like Chamaeleo (Trioceros) Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard et Madsen 1984, Toxepeus et al 1988) can form permanent couples.

In France, where i belong to a group of very skilled people, some of them have very but very large enclosures containing many chameleons, sometimes up to 10 or 12. Some of them live in a lonely way, some of them are in small groups, usually of 2 or 3. I have seen beautiful pictures of chameleons sleeping together, like one inch next to each other, when they had the opportunity to be alone by moving to another spot.

Note that these enclosures are usually one room big, easily 10feet X 12 feet (if not much more), densely planted, with the top up to the roof!

Now, all i wanted to point out is the misconception of the solitary chameleon, because they aren't all that lonely. However, in this video, they don't have an enclosure big enough for 6 chameleons and lacks several things... So yes, this guy is wrong.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

To answer your question, no, it would not be advised.

Nasty Blatta lateralis

-Brad

I should have said that as well. I would not advise it either.

and yeah nasty Blatta lateralis

 

[draetish]

Then why does everyone jump on the band wagon and tells a member that it is a bad thing when they ask if they can put two chams in one enclosure? I'm confused. Also how would you know if one was not pooping, drinking, eating, etc. except for the obvious signs once it's ill. I agree that the chams look very healthy and don't appear to be stressed, but to say it's okay and not a bad thing is condoning this and contradicts what everyone on this forum says.

Todnedo said: "If they are raised together its not as bad as one might think despite what you have read on the net. You don't use supplements at every feeding. The size of the feeder look fine to me. He could use more than one feeding cup".

It's this forum that strongly disagrees with housing more than one cham in the same enclosure, much less "male panthers".

 

[draetish]

Chameleons aren't as solitary as you guys think. You can read in the litterature that Furcifer Pardalis can be seen in a small groups.

In fact, Chamaeleo dilepsis, Chamaeleo chamaeleon, namaquensis, Chamaeleo (Trioceros) cristatus, montium are really lonely chameleons, but others aren't necessary.

These species; Furcifer pardalis (R. Tremper, pers.com), lateralis (W. Schmidt, 1985), Chamaeleo (Trioceros) affinis (Necas, 1995), bitaeniatus (Bustard, 1996), Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard & Madsen 1984, Toxopeus et al 1988), Chamaeleo calyptratus (Necas, 1990, 1991, 1995), Bradypodion thamobates (Langerwerf 1992, Raw 1976), have been cited to live in dense colonies, up to one chameleon per square meter. Also, some of them, like Chamaeleo (Trioceros) Hoehnelii (Hebrard 1983, Hebrard et Madsen 1984, Toxepeus et al 1988) can form permanent couples.

In France, where i belong to a group of very skilled people, some of them have very but very large enclosures containing many chameleons, sometimes up to 10 or 12. Some of them live in a lonely way, some of them are in small groups, usually of 2 or 3. I have seen beautiful pictures of chameleons sleeping together, like one inch next to each other, when they had the opportunity to be alone by moving to another spot.

Note that these enclosures are usually one room big, easily 10feet X 12 feet (if not much more), densely planted, with the top up to the roof!

Now, all i wanted to point out is the misconception of the solitary chameleon, because they aren't all that lonely. However, in this video, they don't have an enclosure big enough for 6 chameleons and lacks several things... So yes, this guy is wrong.

So if I took one room in my house and made it into a cham room, are you saying I could free range all my chams in that one room? What if I had a melleri, panther, veiled, so on and so forth?

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

It's this forum that strongly disagrees with housing more than one cham in the same enclosure, much less "male panthers".

There are a lot of things on this forum that people think they know. I did not see anywhere that Todnedo said he advised it (or it was ok) , but if he did I am sure that would be as a result of experience. Not what people on a forum are telling people what to do.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

So if I took one room in my house and made it into a cham room, are you saying I could free range all my chams in that one room? What if I had a melleri, panther, veiled, so on and so forth?

If you had a big enough room sure why not?

 

[morpheon]

So if I took one room in my house and made it into a cham room, are you saying I could free range all my chams in that one room? What if I had a melleri, panther, veiled, so on and so forth?

This is basically what a few people i know did. However, this is very expensive and these are VERY knowledgeable breeders with easily 10 years of experience and they follow very strick rules in order to make their chameleons happy. However, yes, this is something i will be trying to reproduce in 5 to 10 years.

For example, they reserved one room for males and one room for females. They do not introduce juveniles into the group, and they make sure to ensure that all chameleons are very different in color. Don't ask me why for the different colors because i don't know!

Also, when it's time to add a new chameleon into the group, they can take up to a week or two to make sure they will get along well. However, sometimes, it will simply not work and they put them back into single enclosures for the rest of their lives.

Now, the reason why I tell people that chameleons must be alone in single enclosure is because beginners do not own the proper knowledge to raise multiple chameleons into the same enclosure and wouldn't put the money to have a proper facility.

Finally, if you plan on doing like them, you should be aware that they covered the floor with concrete, and then planted trees and plants, in front of big windows...and much more.

 

[draetish]

There are a lot of things on this forum that people think they know. I did not see anywhere that Todnedo said he advised it (or it was ok) , but if he did I am sure that would be as a result of experience. Not what people on a forum are telling people what to do.

Ryan, since I've been on this forum, everytime someone ask or implies that they are housing 2 chams together, people freak. I'm not saying that Todnedo said he advised it or it was okay, just quoted "what" he said. This in my opinion tells new members that it's "not as bad as one might think". I understand that experienced keepers that know what they are doing, may practice this, but for new cham owners, it's dangerous. Just my opinion and I don't want to start a debate.