Is stress a myth?

[yojon3000]

Not to sound stupid I just want opinions. Yea I know chams arent supposed to be held but...everytime i see a newbie here people say "look but dont touch pet"

is it that it doesnt like being held pet? or an im going to die from stress pet?
like it doesnt like being held but you can still hold it. or are there actual cases of a cham dying because its so stressed.

other times i always read its only okay if youre cleaning the cage or taking to the vet which IMO sounds like it doesnt get stressed when you do those things.
"oh no its sick imma take it to the vet" (stress levels from car HIGH)
but holding it around on your shoulder or arm isnt much stress at all in fact
chams seem pissy when in their cage and when you get them out their like
---> nbd
idk im just bored and thinking
and if you take them out would they not get used to it or what?
and what if you stay still and wrap leaves or vine around your arm will they know its a human? and in the wild when the branches move constantly from wind maybe....its not as much a person moves
just saying
branches in the wild on windy day=person holding the cham outside chillin on a summer day
(sorry if i have typos or dont make sense i was thinking and typing my thoughts)

 

[Solid Snake]

Its Yojon!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system...

Stress being detrimental to their health is very real.

The way I see it, a healthy happy animal is going to go about its business, eating, drinking, thermoregulating, and such normally. When the animal is under stress, it acts differently, therefore changing its behavior to one that could be described as less than ideal. So it may not come out to drink, or eat or anything if it is stressed, thereby creating a negative impact on its health.
As for how much the stress of say holding them for a few min. impacts them, I really cant say, as I dont have the proper qualifications.
Very experienced keepers say it is detrimental, and shortens life span, and I trust them on that.

I only hold my animals to move them outside/inside, to take to the vet, to administer meds, necessary things. When I do I am careful, and dont ever give them any reasons to not trust me, if I can help it. They generally dont mind me moving them at this point, and just go along with it.

If the animal is new, and young, IMO picking it up and holding it could potentially terrify it into "hiding" for days.

 

[yojon3000]

Its Yojon!

Sorry, had to get that out of my system...

Stress being detrimental to their health is very real.

The way I see it, a healthy happy animal is going to go about its business, eating, drinking, thermoregulating, and such normally. When the animal is under stress, it acts differently, therefore changing its behavior to one that could be described as less than ideal. So it may not come out to drink, or eat or anything if it is stressed, thereby creating a negative impact on its health.
As for how much the stress of say holding them for a few min. impacts them, I really cant say, as I dont have the proper qualifications.
Very experienced keepers say it is detrimental, and shortens life span, and I trust them on that.

I only hold my animals to move them outside/inside, to take to the vet, to administer meds, necessary things. When I do I am careful, and dont ever give them any reasons to not trust me, if I can help it. They generally dont mind me moving them at this point, and just go along with it.

If the animal is new, and young, IMO picking it up and holding it could potentially terrify it into "hiding" for days.

haha
but what scares them about a human and a tree with moving branches are they always stressed?

 

[Solid Snake]

haha
but what scares them about a human and a tree with moving branches are they always stressed?

They dont see you as a tree.
They see you as an incredibly large animal, larger than they have ever seen perhaps, and you are looking straight at them, and grabbing for them and such.
That would stress me a bit.

 

[yojon3000]

hmmm good point I should dress up as a tree

 

[nickb]

Sorry to hop in and say the opposite... but one of my best friends owns a Nosy Be male sired from Nihlus at Kammerflage Kreations and he is the friendliest animal I've ever seen. They even advertise his personality on the web site

He literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm. He'll chill on you, hang out, explore, whatever. He just stays bright blue and takes it easy. It's unreal.


My veiled on the other hand is pretty touchy, some days he doesn't mind coming out and chilling on his free range, and others he would much rather be in the cage.

They're just weird animals. All with different temperaments.

 

[yojon3000]

Sorry to hop in and say the opposite... but one of my best friends owns a Nosy Be male sired from Nihlus at Kammerflage Kreations and he is the friendliest animal I've ever seen. They even advertise his personality on the web site

He literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm. He'll chill on you, hang out, explore, whatever. He just stays bright blue and takes it easy. It's unreal.


My veiled on the other hand is pretty touchy, some days he doesn't mind coming out and chilling on his free range, and others he would much rather be in the cage.

They're just weird animals. All with different temperaments.

theyre like humans with alot of personality then
pissed off ones. emo ones. preppy ones. shy ones.

 

[LucasD]

The best thing to do in these situations is wait for the chameleon to make the first move. Never force handle them unless you have to. And when you do, make sure it's a positive experience. My Cham can be sure that whenever he climbs onto my hand he will either be fed, or taken outside.
I'd wager that some chams warm up to their owners very quickly, some slow, and some never at all.

 

[Solid Snake]

Sorry to hop in and say the opposite... but one of my best friends owns a Nosy Be male sired from Nihlus at Kammerflage Kreations and he is the friendliest animal I've ever seen. They even advertise his personality on the web site

He literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm. He'll chill on you, hang out, explore, whatever. He just stays bright blue and takes it easy. It's unreal.


My veiled on the other hand is pretty touchy, some days he doesn't mind coming out and chilling on his free range, and others he would much rather be in the cage.

They're just weird animals. All with different temperaments.

While the animal may literally just not care, I would like to point out that it may just hate being in its cage so much, that it just wants out to explore.
This could even be due to improper husbandry.

There was a point in time my jackson wanted to come out, and climb all over me. VERY weird for a jackson.
This turned out to be an over-supplementation issue.

Not saying he doesnt take good care of his animals, or that it is impossible for them to be "personable", just saying its possible, and the latter improbable.

If the animal comes to you, then it obviously isnt very stressed by your presence. Most are however.

 

[suzi]

So many people say do not handle them much and I am one of the "others".
I handle all of mine and they are super friendly, wanna come out and and play types in most cases. Exceptions are gravid females and when they are shedding (both things tend to make them grumpy) gravid females need privacy. I think if you pay attention and "know" your animal it will tell you when it wants to be held and when it doesn't.

 

[Solid Snake]

Something else,


We dont actually KNOW what is going on inside these animals heads.

However, we do know that they do not encounter us in the wild (much) and probably dont see many larger animals up close in general.

Proper husbandry being defined as: Creating the most naturalist habitat you can for your animal.

I would say it is not proper husbandry to handle them.

I actually dont think that we should be taking them from the wild, and keeping them in captivity

I still keep them though, as that is an after-thought, and there are readily available captive lines established.

Just saying, its probably not a "great" thing that we keep chameleons.
It only brings us pleasure and them suffering.

 

[DekuScrub]

hahahaha!

"but what scares them about a human and a tree"

so chameleons cant hear. but they sense vibrations rather well. so one would assume the part of their brains previously devoted to processing sound input now takes in vibrations. with that said, if you could hear a heartbeat coming out of your floor wouldnt your freak out a little?

stress by itself should never be a factor in "killing your chameleon" by itself. the risk is much higher in wild caughts and chams that have some other malady.

i think in conjunction with the many mistakes a novice keeper may make the recommendation to limit handling is a good one.

"theyre like humans with alot of personality then
pissed off ones. emo ones. preppy ones. shy ones." this statement couldnt be more true. i personally have had a couple of chameleons that "literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm."

i think regular handling is a must if youre going to be a keeper, but keep in mind they arent pets nad must be given space and respect. practical handling practices for short periods that associate being handled with beneficial things like going outside, or special feeders. in the long run will eliminate stress associated with handling.

so its not a myth its real and causes serious issues if they arent doing well, but even a teste male veileds get over themselves when they realize they get a chance to run around a tree, hang out in a butterfly bush and pick off insects, or get some hornworms. chameleons arent the brightest crayons in the box, their behaviors are based on instinct but being consistent and minimizing stress helps them learn to deal with you.

just be patient

 

[yojon3000]

hahahaha!

"but what scares them about a human and a tree"

so chameleons cant hear. but they sense vibrations rather well. so one would assume the part of their brains previously devoted to processing sound input now takes in vibrations. with that said, if you could hear a heartbeat coming out of your floor wouldnt your freak out a little?

stress by itself should never be a factor in "killing your chameleon" by itself. the risk is much higher in wild caughts and chams that have some other malady.

i think in conjunction with the many mistakes a novice keeper may make the recommendation to limit handling is a good one.

"theyre like humans with alot of personality then
pissed off ones. emo ones. preppy ones. shy ones." this statement couldnt be more true. i personally have had a couple of chameleons that "literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm."

i think regular handling is a must if youre going to be a keeper, but keep in mind they arent pets nad must be given space and respect. practical handling practices for short periods that associate being handled with beneficial things like going outside, or special feeders. in the long run will eliminate stress associated with handling.

so its not a myth its real and causes serious issues if they arent doing well, but even a teste male veileds get over themselves when they realize they get a chance to run around a tree, hang out in a butterfly bush and pick off insects, or get some hornworms. chameleons arent the brightest crayons in the box, their behaviors are based on instinct but being consistent and minimizing stress helps them learn to deal with you.

just be patient

Interesting

 

[mcleodschams]

Sorry to hop in and say the opposite... but one of my best friends owns a Nosy Be male sired from Nihlus at Kammerflage Kreations and he is the friendliest animal I've ever seen. They even advertise his personality on the web site

He literally scratches at his cage door to come out and will practically run out on to your arm. He'll chill on you, hang out, explore, whatever. He just stays bright blue and takes it easy. It's unreal.


My veiled on the other hand is pretty touchy, some days he doesn't mind coming out and chilling on his free range, and others he would much rather be in the cage.

They're just weird animals. All with different temperaments.

my male mitsio does this too scatches when he sees you are looking hoping you will put a hand in there for him to jump on lol

 

[DekuScrub]

...........I actually dont think that we should be taking them from the wild, and keeping them in captivity

well i think keeping established blood lines in captivity is a must but on occasion should be supplemented with wild caught genetics. i wish all WC chams would do well and become beneficial aspects to captive gene pools and keeping but sadly more often than not there are losses either due to stress of acclimation of failure in husbandry practices

I still keep them though, as that is an after-thought, and there are readily available captive lines established.

still over time the regular breeding of a closed genepool can become detrimental to the population and mutations that shouldnt be selected *COUGHTANSLUCENTVEILEDSCOUGHcough* (sry got some messed up shiz stuck im my throat. jmo)

Just saying, its probably not a "great" thing that we keep chameleons.
It only brings us pleasure and them suffering.

i would have to say not amongst responsible keepers and breeders, you consider their limited wild lifespans, exposure to deforestation/encroachment, predators, parasites and weather. providing seasonal changes, indoor/outdoor enclosures, varying prey items and phasing different plants into and out of permanent enclosures. i think these things really satisfy enrichment. oh and of course breeding they love that bow-chicka-wowow. i wouldnt say theyre prone to suffering

 

[Solid Snake]

Oh I see your points, and they are sound.

Thats how I feel about it though.

 

[SonTigerPantherCham]

I would still like to see scientific proof about "unseen" stress.
I understand, as with ANY creature if you know your animal you should be able to pick up on its distress.
But if it shows no outward signs, it is used to you and its environment, and willingly comes out...where is the stress?
I would love to see proof. Doesn't breeding cause undo stress, that can be alleviated by not breeding, "oh wait, but there's money in breeding, sorry I forgot"
I just don't get the across the board " omg, don't handle your Cham, you will kill it" theory. Not buying into it

Go ahead, bash away I know its coming

 

[Solid Snake]

I dont think handling your chameleon is going to kill it.

I do think that minimal handling makes sense.

 

[yojon3000]

I would still like to see scientific proof about "unseen" stress.
I understand, as with ANY creature if you know your animal you should be able to pick up on its distress.
But if it shows no outward signs, it is used to you and its environment, and willingly comes out...where is the stress?
I would love to see proof. Doesn't breeding cause undo stress, that can be alleviated by not breeding, "oh wait, but there's money in breeding, sorry I forgot"
I just don't get the across the board " omg, don't handle your Cham, you will kill it" theory. Not buying into it

Go ahead, bash away I know its coming

Agreed Thats what i always feel like

 

[nickb]

I would still like to see scientific proof about "unseen" stress.
I understand, as with ANY creature if you know your animal you should be able to pick up on its distress.
But if it shows no outward signs, it is used to you and its environment, and willingly comes out...where is the stress?
I would love to see proof. Doesn't breeding cause undo stress, that can be alleviated by not breeding, "oh wait, but there's money in breeding, sorry I forgot"
I just don't get the across the board " omg, don't handle your Cham, you will kill it" theory. Not buying into it

Go ahead, bash away I know its coming

I think it has a lot to do with more and more people getting into chameleons. The veterans are always ornery to the newcomers kidding kinda. but true to a degree.

Otherwise, there are a lot of breeds that are wild caught - those probably don't warm up to humans very well.

Veileds are hit or miss, sometimes prone to more aggressive personality I guess.

The Panthers I feel are naturally friendly, or most of them are from what i see on the forums. (i.e. the Nosy Mitsio above)

You can't really broaden the spectrum to what all animals stress about. Because the animals on earth are all extremely different. I mean, we're talking about animals who can have their skin turn the color of the rainbow for crying out loud.

Let's not rule out all possibility just yet