Is my chameleon ok?

Not to hijack the OP's thread, but I just feel like I want to address a few posts in this thread for clarity.

alphakenc said:
Yes. I do agree with Lathis and kinyonga .My chameleon do not cuddle,my chameleon love to "tail wrap"and "Toe curl"gripping me tight when it is our bonding time outside his cage time,sometimes he will not even let go off me to go back to his cage at all,I have to continue rejecting his bonding behavior by bring out another male cham so they will be in a very defensive mode for me to put them back in their separate cages,these are just some of my oberservation with them.
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This is not bonding. At best, he's only nervous at being carried about. At worst, he might be very upset and not understand which direction is "safe" to flee - hence the gripping you tight and refusing to move. Exposing him to another male to frighten him into moving is mean and unnecessary. Do you not know how to safely move your chameleon without hurting his feet? Are you just grabbing him out of the cage?

alphakenc said:
Thank you Im all ears,i will cosider your thoughts.Maybe its me to "bonding" with them,if that sounds better for you along with others in this forum to understand,have a great day jajeanpierre.
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alphakenc said:
Haha,maybe im just a special kind of guy like to think things in a different way,after all Love is making all sorts life to go around,i really appreciate ur thoughts and your persistence to express just like I do in my own way,if I was right about these wording ,and I respect all you great people in this forum,after all I love to see a human writing rather than all my pets silent treatment to me,thank you for reading my thoughts and reply me back.
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Giving people nonsensical and incorrect advise makes it difficult for new keepers who are looking for help to find the correct information they need. I am sorry if this sounds mean, but I try very hard to make sure that when I respond to a post, it is with the best information that I can give.

A human, as an empathetic mammalian creature with a nurturing instinct, may form an emotional attachment to your pets, regardless of their capability of doing the same to you. You should like/love/care for your pets - it's healthy and you are responsible for the entire well being and care of a captive creature. HOWEVER, a chameleon is not the type of pet that forms an emotional attachment in return - they are not going to bond with you in the sense that a social, mammalian pet might (like a cat or dog). The best you can hope for is establish a trust relationship and to do what you can to minimize unnecessary negative stress for that animal. One of the best ways you can do this with a chameleon is by hand feeding treats. Recognizing stress in animals can be very difficult for humans - some animals show very subtle signs of being nervous/scared/uncomfortable, and some show very obvious signs. It varies even among the same species how tolerant any individual animal will be.


@Dojo --> Why don't you start a new post and fill out the "How to Ask for Help" questions. If you can do that for your new cham, we can help you get all the care set up and help you troubleshoot any potential problems for your new baby. https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/how-to-ask-for-help.66/
 
jajeanpierre said:
The whole "bonding" concept is mostly a fallacy, especially when applied to a chameleon. Bonding is what happens between a mother and her newborn, between a couple when they become a couple. It is intricately linked to a whole lot of hormones. It is just not something that happens between a human and a chameleon and I cringe, absolutely cringe, whenever I read someone is spending quality time to "bond" with their chameleon.
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Please dont feel that way,I grew up with both my parents pass away when I was 7 years old,I turn all my attention towards alot of these different pets,I raise them and watch them grow day by day,but nothing will ever replace my lost,but I belive if you showing your affection to ur pets,some how some way certain type of the pets will remember You are the one that been taking care of them by giving them food,water....etc,can we just talk about something else,cause My feeling is feeling kind of weird right now,..,,have a great day jajeanpierre.
 
U people can be the best teams in chameleon laws,thank you for pointing out a different way for me to reconsider.A man is got to do what he thinks for the best on his thoughts.....I will still belive whats the best for me,thank you.
 
Wow! This whole thing just got intense. I too don't think a chameleon is capable of bonding. However a chameleon owner can become quite attached to their pets even if the feeling isn't mutual. I know I do. So maybe that's where they feel this so called bonding?
 
This what I found on my dictionary:
Full Definition of bonding
1
: the formation of a close relationship (as between a mother and child or between a person and an animal) especially through frequent or constant association
2
: the attaching of a material (as porcelain) to a tooth surface especially for cosmetic purposes
Its pretty interesting.....at least its a sunny day now!!
 
Dojo said:
A while ago I posted on here about the loss of my first chameleon dojo :( and what I could have possibly done wrong and you guys gave me some really great advice for my next one when I was ready..well, I ordered one from FL Chams and I have had him for about a week. He seems very healthy it's just one thing we had talked about before that is bothering me..when I bring him out he finds a comfy place on my then lays his body down and goes to sleep. He doesn't sleep all the time or anything like that. He will be up all day but the min I bring him out he finds a spot and crashes. Is this ok?
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No, no that is not okay. I'd fill out the "how to ask for help" form like Lathis suggested. I'd also leave the chameleon alone for the next few weeks, other than to correct whatever issue is going on. A week is not nearly long enough for a cham to settle in to his enclosure, let alone be comfortable being handled. It took my guy 4 months to really be comfortable with me carefully moving him to his free range tree, shower, etc, and he is a very tolerant chameleon. A chameleon needs at least 2 weeks to claim their territory as their own, and likely several more to become somewhat tolerant of their caretaker and not see them as an active threat to their own safety. One week is nothing, and no handling should be done.
 
jajeanpierre said:
Dojo, what does "stressed" in a chameleon look like to you? Why do you think you would recognize what a stressed chameleon looks like?

Again, what species of chameleon do you have and how big/old is he?

What is your enclosure like now? Is it the same 20gal tank you had for your first chameleon? The one everyone told you was inappropriate for a chameleon?

Chameleons are not like dogs or cats. I really doubt any like to be handled; I suspect the ones the owners claim to like handling and being touched are simply very good natured, calm animals that simply tolerate it. They may have learned to tolerate handling in order to get something else they want such as more space outside their cage. Tolerate is a far cry from enjoy.

Your experience with chameleons is all of two months and ended badly without you even being aware your animal was ill although when you posted her story, many responded that there were warning signs that all was not well right from day one. Again, experienced keepers are suggesting things are not right again, this time with your handling.

I think you are completely misreading your chameleon, attributing mammalian/human traits to a reptile. There is absolutely no way you can know what his private thoughts are and whether or not he likes something. Those are the internal private workings of his mind, something you do not have access to--he doesn't speak human and you don't speak chameleon. Think about how often people misunderstand the motives and intentions of other humans? Why do you think you, a human with no successful experience keeping chameleons, could understand what he likes or does not like?

A chameleon is a pretty simple creature. They eat, they reproduce and they sit and wait. They don't strike me as a creature that does a lot of thinking about anything. They are not a species that likes novelty.

You have just received this new chameleon and it seems you are misreading him the way you misread your first chameleon. Let's take a more in depth look at two of your statements:

"When I bring him out he finds a comfy place on me then lays his body down and goes to sleep. He doesn't sleep all the time or anything like that. He will be up all day but the min I bring him out he finds a spot and crashes."

"In my opinion I feel like he likes to come out and sleep because when I put him back he reaches up to the top of the tank and sometimes grabs onto the top and crawls on it like hes pissed I put him back."

In your first statement you suggest he finds a comfy place. What is comfy for a dog is not comfy for a chameleon. Comfy for a chameleon is a skinny natural branch or twig. I do not get the impression from your post that he searches and finds a stick to perch on. They don't snuggle. Dogs snuggle, chameleons don't. You are grossly misunderstanding the very nature of your new pet. If a chameleon is flattening out, they are either in a defensive posture or they are basking and nothing you write suggests to me that this animal is basking in his "comfy" spot.

In your second statement, you are applying motives to your chameleon that you have absolutely no way of knowing. I have no idea what he is thinking, whether he is unhappy at being put back in his cage, but his behavior suggests something is stressing him. If he weren't stressed, he would simply sit on a branch. Lots of chameleons are unhappy (stressed) in their enclosures and it is usually because the enclosure is inappropriate. Again, do you have him in the same 20gal tank that your first one was housed in? Twenty gallons is not a big enclosure. A new screen cage (about 24" x 24" x 48") will only cost about $100. An inappropriate cage is one that is too small, poorly furnished or the incorrect temperature or humidity. What is "too small" for one chameleon is tolerable for another. Twenty gallons is pretty small.

Look first at your husbandry. It seems he is agitated in his cage when you put him back. Why? The cage is probably too small. Is it furnished enough--does it have lots of cover, lots of perching spaces at different levels so he can choose the amount of light (UVB) and temperature to be at? Is it the right temperature and humidity for his species and his age? Young chameleons need slightly different conditions than mature chameleons.

Chameleons do not come out of a cage and sleep in a strange environment. If you pick up (stress) even a very sick chameleon they will become alert. Adrenaline and other hormones involved in a stress response (hich is a survival resonse) have that effect on them and any other animal for that matter. That's why a mortally wounded animal might run off on broken legs. Survival hormones kick in and they overcome a lot of pain, etc.

We have all told you: it is abnormal for a chameleon to close its eyes and supposedly sleep on you, especially during daylight. We told you that with your first chameleon and we are telling you again with this second chameleon.

We have told you that handling is stressful yet you try to pet him.

We have offered you an explanation of why an apparently healthy chameleon might appear to go to sleep when put in a very stressful situation. You have failed to understand and recognize that handling chameleons is stressful. You have owned this second chameleon for a few days and you are stressing it to the point that it is shutting down. Keep it up and you will be burying this chameleon as well, because chronic stress shuts down the immune system so they are more vulnerable to a disease. Chameleons are pretty tough IF you give them what you need. Handling is simply not what they need, and is especially stressful on an already stressed animal.

I don't think a chameleon is the right pet for you. Why do you have one? You are not recognizing their very nature. They do not like to be petted. They do not engage in any form of tactile behavior to each other even when breeding so why do you think he would like his chin stroked?

I'm sorry for being blunt and seemingly harsh. I know how upset you were when you lost your first chameleon. It is always better to err on the side of giving him less stress than he can comfortably tolerate than giving him too much. You are new to chameleons, yet you are ignoring experienced keepers suggestions and insight into the very nature of chameleons. I'm not sure you are open to giving this chameleon what he needs.
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Now that that is past I have a 18"; L X 18"; W X 36"; H. Plenty of branches, leaves, misting system, dripper, timer for the light and a variety of foods for him to eat. I am not an idiot as you are making me out to be. Yes, my first chameleon experience went very badly and as much research as I did, didn't help me see the signs of what was wrong with her. Also, yes, you can tell when they are stressed. Like I can tell when mine is. I said "comfy" so you could kind of picture him in an ideal place for him to be sleeping like up on my shoulder. I wasn't suggesting that he crawled into a lil chameleon bed, did some circles, and laid down. I was kind of counting on your "common sense" to put these things together.
Furthermore, I came to this site because you all were very inviting, nice and informative. Now it seems everyone has gotten their head up their ass and act like snobs which is why I usually do not post on any forums. I am done posting on here so say what you want. Ruined another good site with your snobbery.
 
Dojo said:
Now that that is past I have a 18"; L X 18"; W X 36"; H. Plenty of branches, leaves, misting system, dripper, timer for the light and a variety of foods for him to eat. I am not an idiot as you are making me out to be. Yes, my first chameleon experience went very badly and as much research as I did, didn't help me see the signs of what was wrong with her. Also, yes, you can tell when they are stressed. Like I can tell when mine is. I said "comfy" so you could kind of picture him in an ideal place for him to be sleeping like up on my shoulder. I wasn't suggesting that he crawled into a lil chameleon bed, did some circles, and laid down. I was kind of counting on your "common sense" to put these things together.
Furthermore, I came to this site because you all were very inviting, nice and informative. Now it seems everyone has gotten their head up their ass and act like snobs which is why I usually do not post on any forums. I am done posting on here so say what you want. Ruined another good site with your snobbery.
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That was uncalled for.

You come here asking for help, I give you some solid behavior analysis to start you thinking in the right direction, stuff I learned from some of the best animal trainers in the world, and you swear obscenities at me.
 
jajeanpierre said:
That was uncalled for.

You come here asking for help, I give you some solid behavior analysis to start you thinking in the right direction, stuff I learned from some of the best animal trainers in the world, and you swear obscenities at me.
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You know what, appreciate you trying to help me, i really do but the way you spoke to me was uncalled for and highly offensive.
 
Hi Dojo,can I be ur friend?its a nice day out here,plz talk to me.I understand ur feeling,there is 2side of coins and there are no fault on anyone,but I know for sure that after the rain,there is always a sunny day.
We can start a new post if u want....
 
Hi pygmy chameleon,Im so sorry about your second plates,cause I was too busy washing my dishes last night,would u like to share some strawberry short cakes with dojo,and let me know if you guys like it?
th.jpeg
 
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