I think my Chameleon has MBD, vet says no?
- Thread starter 90green
- Start date
Will Hayward
New Member
I'm sorry if we are repeating anything, or telling you things that seem really obvious. However, Im glad to hear that the vet is so confident. She seems to be in good hands as far as I can tell.
I'm confused. You have yet to mention if you use a heat lamp. If you did, sorry, I missed it, I only saw you wrote about a UV florescent tube. Anyways, fulkers makes both analogue and digital thermometers, but you didnt say which one you have. You should invest in a digital thermometer with a probe. You can buy them for as little as $5. They are a small digital display, with a 3-4 foot cord that you can place on the prech that sits under the heat lamp.
The "Basking spot" should be around 95-100 degrees farenheight. 10 too low degrees is a big enough difference to cause problems.
Although I have never measured the UV myself from a bulb with a plastic cover on it. However, the general consensus says that plastic of most popular varieties, block almost all, above 90% of the UV that the specialized bulbs produce. Effectively rendering them, pretty much useless other than for providing actual visible light.
You have a decent sized cage, so I will put forth a personal suggestion. I have used Mercury Vapour Bulbs (High wattage, High heat, And Intense UV producing) with both chameleons and bearded dragons before. When used with Panther chameleons for 2+ months, I saw no ill effects at all. Colours and activity may have increased slightly. I have also seen the MV bulbs do remarkable things for a bearded dragon, who's health was rapidly declining. She went from very sick, to above healthy. I am very confident that her health was affected by the MV bulbs I now use with them instead of the florescent tubes.
The MV bulbs send high levels of UV for more than 72". The Florescent 5.0 bulbs are only rated for weak UV at 12". As if that isn't wild enough, recent studies
suggest that the shedding skin of a veiled chameleon can block up to 22% of the UV passing through it.
When using MV with chameleons, I suggest having the basking spot (With correct temperatures) farther than 10" away from the bottom of the bulb, as in SOME brands of bulbs, the area directly below it, up to around 8" can produce UV that could possibly be TOO intense for chameleons. And that is the reason that I say this is a personal suggestion, as not everyone recommends it. I myself have not have problems in the slightest with MV. They are also quite cost effective.
Even with the new photos provided, I still believe that the cage is greatly under planted. Real plants will help bring up the humidity greatly. Scoop out the top few inches of soil from each pot and replace with coconut fiber and it will do wonders. Not only that, but veiled chameleons may choose to nibble on plants, given them option for a more balanced diet.
As is, you are wasting 1/3 of the cage. You can cut lengths of (properly treated) tree branches and secure them both horizontally and vertically in the cage to give anchors to secure hanging vines, hanging plant pots, or climbing rope to. On the forums main menu (left side) there is a section for LIVE PLANTS that give a good amount of detail to what plants can be used, eaten, and also what to stay away from.
As for feeders, it would be a good idea to start to offer a larger variety, and like your vet said, to look into feeders that are high in vits and calcium.
90green said:
I'm confused. You have yet to mention if you use a heat lamp. If you did, sorry, I missed it, I only saw you wrote about a UV florescent tube. Anyways, fulkers makes both analogue and digital thermometers, but you didnt say which one you have. You should invest in a digital thermometer with a probe. You can buy them for as little as $5. They are a small digital display, with a 3-4 foot cord that you can place on the prech that sits under the heat lamp.
The "Basking spot" should be around 95-100 degrees farenheight. 10 too low degrees is a big enough difference to cause problems.
90green said:
Although I have never measured the UV myself from a bulb with a plastic cover on it. However, the general consensus says that plastic of most popular varieties, block almost all, above 90% of the UV that the specialized bulbs produce. Effectively rendering them, pretty much useless other than for providing actual visible light.
You have a decent sized cage, so I will put forth a personal suggestion. I have used Mercury Vapour Bulbs (High wattage, High heat, And Intense UV producing) with both chameleons and bearded dragons before. When used with Panther chameleons for 2+ months, I saw no ill effects at all. Colours and activity may have increased slightly. I have also seen the MV bulbs do remarkable things for a bearded dragon, who's health was rapidly declining. She went from very sick, to above healthy. I am very confident that her health was affected by the MV bulbs I now use with them instead of the florescent tubes.
The MV bulbs send high levels of UV for more than 72". The Florescent 5.0 bulbs are only rated for weak UV at 12". As if that isn't wild enough, recent studies
suggest that the shedding skin of a veiled chameleon can block up to 22% of the UV passing through it.
When using MV with chameleons, I suggest having the basking spot (With correct temperatures) farther than 10" away from the bottom of the bulb, as in SOME brands of bulbs, the area directly below it, up to around 8" can produce UV that could possibly be TOO intense for chameleons. And that is the reason that I say this is a personal suggestion, as not everyone recommends it. I myself have not have problems in the slightest with MV. They are also quite cost effective.
90green said:
Even with the new photos provided, I still believe that the cage is greatly under planted. Real plants will help bring up the humidity greatly. Scoop out the top few inches of soil from each pot and replace with coconut fiber and it will do wonders. Not only that, but veiled chameleons may choose to nibble on plants, given them option for a more balanced diet.
As is, you are wasting 1/3 of the cage. You can cut lengths of (properly treated) tree branches and secure them both horizontally and vertically in the cage to give anchors to secure hanging vines, hanging plant pots, or climbing rope to. On the forums main menu (left side) there is a section for LIVE PLANTS that give a good amount of detail to what plants can be used, eaten, and also what to stay away from.
As for feeders, it would be a good idea to start to offer a larger variety, and like your vet said, to look into feeders that are high in vits and calcium.
Will Hayward
New Member
Keep posting more photos every few days as things progress and changes are made. We are all rooting for you.
EDIT: (Except the Auzzies here, if there are any, they may find this funny)
EDIT: (Except the Auzzies here, if there are any, they may find this funny)
MWheelock said:
Aparently its just the position of her arm and being so skinny. Basicaly along with MBD she wasnt getting enough vitamins and or calcium from the store fed crickets. I now am alternating her meals 6 times a day feeding her green vegtables blended in the blender along with repti-cal and also the nutri-cal. I have had her outside for an hour and a half the last two days, "not in direct sun" and will continue to do so daily. I will take more pics of her soon.
Will Hayward
New Member
Coconut fiber is sold in compact bricks at most pet stores with reptile departments. Just buy one brick, as they expand 7-8 times the size when you add water.
Plants can be bought at your local garden store. They are safe to use after you treat them. To do this, you must re pot the plant with soil without perlite/vermiculite/chemicals. You should also rinse the leaves in a large tub of 1:10 parts soap to water. Its as simple as turning the plant upside down and dunking it thoroughly.
Plants can be bought at your local garden store. They are safe to use after you treat them. To do this, you must re pot the plant with soil without perlite/vermiculite/chemicals. You should also rinse the leaves in a large tub of 1:10 parts soap to water. Its as simple as turning the plant upside down and dunking it thoroughly.
Will Hayward said:
OK thanks.. Well shes been eating much more today. She seems to really like the fresh spinach mixed with repti-cal more than anything else I have tried, she actually opens her mouth for the dropper with this stuff. I am kinda worried since she has not yet gone to the restroom since I have been back.
Will Hayward
New Member
It will probably take a solid body feeder to help her poop. Offer a few dusted crickets or similar.90green said:
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Dont know if anybody is on now... She isnt looking too good at the moment. She did finally poop this evening and I felt better about that but she is looking really out of it. She is a very pale color green and barley moving at all. The vet opens at 6 in the morning but I dont know if the specialist who saw her is there..... I am going there first thing.. Has anybody seen them turn such a pale green just because?
ChameleonsTree
New Member
well try and make sure she is comfortable and don't stress her intil morning when you go to the vet
Will Hayward
New Member
No, a pale green could mean that her condition has worsend, or that she is too hot. As lighter colours will absorb less heat. Check the temperatures once again.
Also, if you can, take some photos of the poop for us. If not, describe it. Poops tell stories.
Also, if you can, take some photos of the poop for us. If not, describe it. Poops tell stories.
Lunatic913
New Member
i just found out that my charm has mbd...hes only about 3 months old..do chams ever recover from such disease? i made an appointment with the vet on mon. also should i have the heat lamp on if my cage is about 80 degrees without a heat lamp. i live in CA
Will Hayward
New Member
The basking spot should be ~100.
MWheelock
Veterinarian
Mbd
Yes, reptiles can recover fully from MBD if treated correctly. Bones heal and strengthen, though pre-existing healed fracture sites will stay the same (i.e. if a arm had set crooked its going to stay that way.) Secondary abscesses or infections are a pain to treat, but they will resolve over time too if treated correctly.
Husbandy is the key. The fact that you don't have the basking area high enough is a red flag that there are other husbandry issues that you probably are not doing. Do you have a UVB bulb? Is is close enough to the cage? Are you using the right supplements? Are you gut-loading your feeders? Is the humidity correct? ect.
Chams are not the most forgiving of reptiles and you really have to research their requirements. The issue that most vets deal with in relation to reptiles is husbandry. The reptiles metabolism is fairly slow so conditions like MBD will creep up on you over a couple months. Likewise, once the condition is observed, even with the best of treatment, you are looking at another couple of months before you are back to a somewhat normal level.
You need your vet to sit down with you and map out exactly how your set up is. If you cannot bring in the entire set up a picture will really help him/her.
Matthew
Yes, reptiles can recover fully from MBD if treated correctly. Bones heal and strengthen, though pre-existing healed fracture sites will stay the same (i.e. if a arm had set crooked its going to stay that way.) Secondary abscesses or infections are a pain to treat, but they will resolve over time too if treated correctly.
Husbandy is the key. The fact that you don't have the basking area high enough is a red flag that there are other husbandry issues that you probably are not doing. Do you have a UVB bulb? Is is close enough to the cage? Are you using the right supplements? Are you gut-loading your feeders? Is the humidity correct? ect.
Chams are not the most forgiving of reptiles and you really have to research their requirements. The issue that most vets deal with in relation to reptiles is husbandry. The reptiles metabolism is fairly slow so conditions like MBD will creep up on you over a couple months. Likewise, once the condition is observed, even with the best of treatment, you are looking at another couple of months before you are back to a somewhat normal level.
You need your vet to sit down with you and map out exactly how your set up is. If you cannot bring in the entire set up a picture will really help him/her.
Matthew
Lunatic913
New Member
im using a repti glo 5.0 right now. and a heat lamp, but since the cage is warm inside like 85 degrees...the pet shop owner said to turn off the heat lamp because it is to warm for him. i gut load my crickets with romain lettuce and peaches and dust them about twice a week.
my question is...do i leave the heat lamp on right now with this kind of heat? my cham does not even have the strength to climb up to the warm spot, hes been on the base of the cage and i have to manually lift him. i made an appointment with the vet for this mon but i think that is to long of a wait, but its the only exotic vet that does good work...should i wait?
my question is...do i leave the heat lamp on right now with this kind of heat? my cham does not even have the strength to climb up to the warm spot, hes been on the base of the cage and i have to manually lift him. i made an appointment with the vet for this mon but i think that is to long of a wait, but its the only exotic vet that does good work...should i wait?
Will Hayward
New Member
85 too warm? I think this shop keeper needs some guidance aswell.
As for the vet, Make calls again and try and get him in this afternoon. If your chameleon doesn't have the strenth to climb, you have waited far too long and this is now a very serious matter.
In addition to the low heat that could be cause for problem, you may be overfeeding and under supplimenting. It might be wise to review your meal times/amounts.
As for the vet, Make calls again and try and get him in this afternoon. If your chameleon doesn't have the strenth to climb, you have waited far too long and this is now a very serious matter.
In addition to the low heat that could be cause for problem, you may be overfeeding and under supplimenting. It might be wise to review your meal times/amounts.
Lunatic913
New Member
o ok..thnks for the help, hopefully he can make it through
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