PenelopeLove
New Member
I have just been told that Ernie has died. I don't know what I did wrong. Now I feel like a Chameleon Killer.
I seriously need help from someone!
- Thread starter PenelopeLove
- Start date
PenelopeLove
New Member
Thank you Kate, I have no idea what happened. I am seeing the vet this afternoon for him to do a post-mortem and see if it was something I did or was something he had before I received him.
little leaf
Avid Member
aww 
so sorry for your loss
so sorry for your loss
PenelopeLove
New Member
Thank you so much for your kind words.. I have been given the post-mortem report, but they say it is inconclusive.
This is the report:
Consultation Date: 16 January 2013
Reason for Visit: Post Mortem
SR Brought today for post motem. Bodyweight 80 gr. Air sacs are
haemorragic with very small yellow lumps in them. Blood in
air sacs can be due to post mortem stasis or infection. All
the other organs are normal in shape and size. Stomach is
filled up by a soft cricket. Bladder has a flocculated
material of unknown nature inside. All the other organs in
the coelomic cavity are normal in shape and size. Head and
skull unremarkable.
Gross post-mortem is inconclusive; for a definitive diagnosis histopathology to UK is suggested.
I don't really understand it. If anyone can, I would really appreciate some translation/opinion as to what caused Ernie to pass so suddenly.
The histopathology is very expensive because the have to send his organs to the UK, but if you guys think I should do it, then I will.
I really don't know what happened. I'm so upset.
This is the report:
Consultation Date: 16 January 2013
Reason for Visit: Post Mortem
SR Brought today for post motem. Bodyweight 80 gr. Air sacs are
haemorragic with very small yellow lumps in them. Blood in
air sacs can be due to post mortem stasis or infection. All
the other organs are normal in shape and size. Stomach is
filled up by a soft cricket. Bladder has a flocculated
material of unknown nature inside. All the other organs in
the coelomic cavity are normal in shape and size. Head and
skull unremarkable.
Gross post-mortem is inconclusive; for a definitive diagnosis histopathology to UK is suggested.
I don't really understand it. If anyone can, I would really appreciate some translation/opinion as to what caused Ernie to pass so suddenly.
The histopathology is very expensive because the have to send his organs to the UK, but if you guys think I should do it, then I will.
I really don't know what happened. I'm so upset.
lovepicasso
New Member
So very sorry for your loss, it hurts my heart every time I read about the death of these loved little creatures.....RIP Ernie.
PenelopeLove
New Member
Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your thoughts and kind words.
I will do a proper post tomorrow.. Feeling a little low at the moment
I will do a proper post tomorrow.. Feeling a little low at the moment
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your thoughts and kind words.
I will do a proper post tomorrow.. Feeling a little low at the moment
Hey. Don't beat yourself up. Feeling a bit low is normal, but there is no blame here. If I took it to heart every time a chameleon of mine had died for unexplained reasons, my heart would have given out a decade ago.
When looking at basic monitoring of a chameleon's health, two things will cover about 80% of the possible concerns while the animal is alive: fecals and cultures. Fecal from the aft end, and culture from both the aft and fore end. Fecals are less expensive. Bacteria cultures are more pricey. But they will give you valuable feedback.
There are many things that can go wrong with a panther, but in my experience, over 75% of them they fall into 4 major categories, not in order:
1) Poor basic husbandy. Not warm enough, or not watered properly, or a lack of nutrition in the gutload.
2) Vitamin A deficiency. If you are not dosing it directly to the chameleon, and rather relying on supplements, half of all panthers will develop this.
3) Poison pill crickets. There is a moisture issue that foments excessive bacteria growth in the life-cycle of your bugs. Might be a dish under a potted plant in the cage, always with water in it, or an issue with how you provide fluids to your crickets. In either case, the crickets are able to drink septic water, which they can survive, but which delivers an enormous bacterial cocktail into the mouth of your chameleon once chomped. Symptoms are a build-up of heavy mucous in your chameleon's mouth over time, which wil then move down the throat, and compromise the chameleon further. Can be remedied with antibiotics, while also eliminating the contamination source. Crickets need access to water that is fresh every two days, and not more. At about 4 days, standing water is a mess, and you invite disaster.
4) Coccidia. Will show up in a fecal. Can be remedied, but is insidiously persistent if not addressed.
Other things can go wrong, but in our extended experience, the above four, rather easily diagnosed, and then remedied if caught in time, cover the overwhelming majority of the issues.
Take care.
Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your thoughts and kind words.
I will do a proper post tomorrow.. Feeling a little low at the moment
That is really horrible to here
.... from the looks of things it was not your fualt at all...you were doing so well with him....im vary sorry to here. but you cant beat your self up about it you were doing everything you were told to do
purplebiotch
New Member
We have household roaches, but I haven't seen one in forever! We get big spiders sometimes, but they are mostly in the hills and I've been told most of them are quite venomous, so I wouldn't be able to tell if they were safe or not.
Varying his feeders is the biggest problem I face here. Crickets and mealworms.. SO BORING! But I haven't given up hope just yet..I will keep searching
Where do you live dude! No offense but that sounds kinda scary if the spiders are venomous to humans too...
And I am also SO sorry for your loss. If you ask me you were doing everything right sometimes life is just selfish like that.
PenelopeLove
New Member
Hi
1) Poor basic husbandy. Not warm enough, or not watered properly, or a lack of nutrition in the gutload.
I know I had a few issues with the heat, but I followed your advice and was monitoring the temps very closely, so I don't really feel that was it. He has is mistking and dripper so no issues with water and I gutload with cricket-crack and mostly red capsicum and apples as fresh green are hard to find. Reason why I add the cricket-crack.
2) Vitamin A deficiency. If you are not dosing it directly to the chameleon, and rather relying on supplements, half of all panthers will develop this.
I would love some tips on this if that is ok with you? I'm not too sure about additional Vit. A, as this was only offered through supplementing and as you are already aware, he wasn't eating, so it was difficult to ensure that he was receiving all he needed.
3) Poison pill crickets. There is a moisture issue that foments excessive bacteria growth in the life-cycle of your bugs. Might be a dish under a potted plant in the cage, always with water in it, or an issue with how you provide fluids to your crickets. In either case, the crickets are able to drink septic water, which they can survive, but which delivers an enormous bacterial cocktail into the mouth of your chameleon once chomped. Symptoms are a build-up of heavy mucous in your chameleon's mouth over time, which wil then move down the throat, and compromise the chameleon further. Can be remedied with antibiotics, while also eliminating the contamination source. Crickets need access to water that is fresh every two days, and not more. At about 4 days, standing water is a mess, and you invite disaster.
I think this sounds pretty on the mark. I noticed a build up of clear mucus over the last 3-4 days.. not secreting from his mouth or in his nose or anything, but in his mouth for sure. I never leave excess water anywhere in the cage and soak anything I see with a sponge each day, as I am aware that sitting water can encourage bacteria.
BUT! and here is where I think we've found the problem.... My usual supplier of crickets ran out of them.. his colony died off and its been nearly a month since they've had any available as they are trying to get the colony back now. Because of this I had to buy crickets from someone else. I had a bad feeling about them from the start, but I had them gorging on fresh produce for a few days hoping anything bad inside would be pooped away. But, I guess not.
Do you have any tips on how to ensure that the crickets I feed to my Chameleons do not have any baddies in them? I would like to start my own colony now in preparation for a new friend.. maybe in March, we'll see... and I would like to ensure this does not happen again. Are there any tell tale signs of a bad cricket? If they have bacteria in them, can it be fixed or must you simply throw them out?
It is VERY hard here to ensure the quality of what is bought, both in respect to the animal and the feeders. I would like to start my own colony so that I know exactly what is feed to my babies.
4) Coccidia. Will show up in a fecal. Can be remedied, but is insidiously persistent if not addressed.
His faecal showed he had both Ascarids and Coccidia and was being treated for these with Panacur. Would they have mentioned this in the report if they found that during the post-mortem? Or was Panacur not the right treatment?
Again, your advice to me has been fantastic. I would like to improve in anyway possible and would appreciate your thoughts on the above.
I guess the reason I am so sad is because my first chameleon, Penelope, was sold to me extremely ill. She was on the road to recovery, but had developed pressure wounds on her wrists since before I had her and one split open. The vet had told me that we could try to help her and get them to heal, but it would take months and there would not be a guarantee that they would heal. She had already fought so hard getting better from her respiratory infection that I didn't have the heart to put her through any more stress considering the quality of life she would have had whilst trying to recover from those wounds (for a very narrow 'maybe'). I decided to let her go and put her to sleep. The vet had advised me, that if it weren't for the pressure wounds, she would have made a full recovery from her infection within the next few weeks. I am still so proud of her.
Ernie is my second chameleon and I just am so shocked this has happened. I am so disappointed. I did so much research in preparation for him to come so that I could ensure he would be happy and healthy.
Because of Penelope, the pet shop (yes.. I know.. pet shop
) are giving me a 'replacement' veiled. He/She will arrive in late Feb/March. I am really not feeling too encouraged right now.. but I will take whoever is offered to me and do my very best to offer the greatest quality of life. I now have 2 empty enclosures and it is very hard to see them like this.
ataraxia
Avid Member
Sorry to hear about Ernie.
For your own knowledge. If your vet is to diagnose your chameleon with a parasite. Always research your vets course of treatment, drugs prescribed and anything recommended. Heck i even do this with a doctor. I want to know why, when and how. If its serious i also want a second opinion. In your instance the drugs to be prescribed needed to target that particular parasite. Panacur should take care of Ascarids but is ineffective against coccidia.
For your own knowledge. If your vet is to diagnose your chameleon with a parasite. Always research your vets course of treatment, drugs prescribed and anything recommended. Heck i even do this with a doctor. I want to know why, when and how. If its serious i also want a second opinion. In your instance the drugs to be prescribed needed to target that particular parasite. Panacur should take care of Ascarids but is ineffective against coccidia.
ChameleonMom
New Member
I am shocked to hear about Ernie and I feel terrible for you and the sense of loss you are feeling right now, but please, please, PLEASE don't give up! You have so much to offer as a chameleon mom - you've had a string of bad luck but you will have success, I promise! Please know I'm thinking of you. RIP Ernie
PenelopeLove
New Member
Hi ataraxia,
Thank you so much for your response. Each day I am learning more and more. If only I had been aware of this so that I could have helped him.
Which medication is used to treat coccidia? just for future reference?
PenelopeLove
New Member
That is really horrible to here
Thank you so much guys, I really appreciate your thoughts
@purplebiotch - I live in Dubai.. we don't have heaps of spiders like in Australia (I'm aussie).. but we do have them and we do have to be careful.. google camel spiders if you're feeling particularly curious!
PenelopeLove
New Member
Thanks Mate.. I'll be sure to be very thorough to check with the vet about medications in the future.
So sorry to hear this. I've been following along silently reading and not posting, but just found the other post about Ernie. So sorry for your loss. I will say that it would make sense that if there were a problem with the feeders that your cham may lose its appetite for them. It sounds to me that you probably have the source of Ernie's demise, but its not easy to say for sure. He was a gorgeous boy and is gone too soon, but you did all you could for him and never gave up! RIP Ernie!
