How long do you let a new cham go without eating?

Extensionofgreen

Chameleon Enthusiast
My pair of parsonii appear healthy, cleared their first vet check, and had their first clean fecal, and appear healthy in every way. The problem is that the male doesn't seem to be interested in anything I feed him. He loved superworm, so I stopped offering them, to encourage him to eat crickets, roaches, silkworms, BSF larva, hornworms, and so on. I bought housefly pupae to try, but after 4 days, at 85F, that have not hatched.
Both chams have been here for about 10 days.
His color appears good, he drinks and behaves normally, but he is noticeably thinner and refusing food.
The female eats with gusto.
Pictures of the enclosure can me seen in my album and the male is about 1' long.
I mist with heated water, via a MistKing for 2 30 min sessions and 1 15 min session, every day. Urates look good and he has defecated twice, consisting of 3, formed stools, one within his first 2 days and the other 2 a week later, on the same dayo. The basking temp is 85F-87F and ambients are between 75-78F, with a temp drop to 68F-70F at night. They have a reptisun 10.0 T5, shining through 30% sunblocking screen and I let them bask outdoors for 25-30min increments, a couple times a week, with no additional handling.
I use a makeup brush and dust about 1 dozen crickets daily and place roaches and a couple superworms and BSF larvae in feeder bowls, undusted. I feed the feeders a homemade gutload of greens, oranges, cantaloupe, grated winter squash, sweet potato, and hand picked wild greens. They have a dry gutload of spirulina, bee pollen, chia seed, blueberry powder, sunflower seeds, almonds, kelp powder, chlorella, almonds, less than 10% of high quality dog kibble, grain based cereals, and other dry ingredients.

I am concerned because the vet noted the tiniest amount of rubbery, but not mishaped jaw, and he indicated he should be just fine, once normal calcium was and plentiful food was introduced. If he isn't eating, he isn't getting that calcium.
Would you or should I force feed him a couple times a week or let him be and keep an eye on him? I've force fed chameleons before, so doing so isn't a problem, but I don't want to stress him out and if he isn't adjusting to new life, I'm sure handling him to force feed him won't speed that process up any.
Thanks in advanced.
 
Bump. I don't have a good answer for you for fresh WC but don't want this to get lost in the new threads.
 
I have never owned Parsonii so take my advice with a grain of salt. However if it were me, and he hasn't eaten for a week I would force feed him he has got to eat weather it stresses him or not. Stress may and will kill over time, but not eating is stressful, and will definitely kill him. It's what I would do in your case. Just not real sure how long a parsonii can go without eating hopefully some of the experienced parsonii keepers will chime in. Good luck.
 
There is extremely important that you talk to someone who had parsons before you do anything.
It could have a wound in his mouth or and infection not allowing him to eat. Also parson hibernated in a way that they stay in the same spot for many weeks I believe barely eating anything in the winter part of the year.
Use the search word parson here and find the threads other people had made about them and PM them. I would PM christ Andersson as well.
Good luck and NO dog food
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I'm sure they are not brumating and they were eating for the seller. I have kept much younger parsons before, so have a small bit of experience.
Regarding the dog food, I know that it is considered "bad", but the reality is that if it makes up less than 10% of the dry weight of the gutload, and it is good quality, it does more good than harm. Feeding feeders a diet high in fat soluable vitamins and animal protein is dangerous, but providing just enough to supply some of these vitamins and not overdoing the protein is perfectly ok. I make this argument based on my experience with raising melleri and the improvements that were seen once I started adding vitamin A and small amounts of dog kibble, for dogs with renal problems. Before doing this, the young melleri would develop eye issues. I brought labels with me to the vet and discussed this, at length, him having actually performed surgery on parsonii, so he knows his stuff and was impressed with my approach to their care. I do appreciate the concern and it is not misplaced, but I assure you is is an informed decision, and not one of ease or ignorance. The feeders also get fed off, after being fed wet gutload, so most of the crickets will have excreted the dry gutload by then, since I give dry mix, then wet, on a 2:1 day ratio.
 
If you sense a slight rubbery jaw I'd be concerned that force feeding could injure it. Maybe it would be better to indulge his interest in the superworms again until he's a bit more established and the jaw issue seems to be resolved. I'd rather deal with stubborn food preferences than an MBD-related jaw injury any day.
 
Someone said Parsons.

If the animal is comfortable at this early stage of ownership with eating anything, you feed it that. Coat the superworms with straight calcium and gut load them. This is an import we are talking about. Fecals need to be checked for the six months, hydrate the hell out of him too. Offer new foods as you can but at least for the first 4-6 months you feed the import what it will eat on it's own.

Make sure the UVB is correct and let the calcium on the superworms do it's job if you think the jaw is rubbery. He's grow bored with them like any other Parson and want something bigger when his jaw and his mood is ready
 
I have offered him superworms, daily, the last week and they go ignored. The vet noted the very slightly rubbery jaw, so it is certainly an issue to be concerned about.
I'm dusting every day with RepCal Calcium, no D3. Once every other week, they either get Repashy Calcium Plus, or Repashy LoD and Dendrocare, which has minute amounts of A and D3, designed to supplement dart frogs and confirmed to be safe for frequent (more than weekly) use by the vet. Once every other week, when they are not getting the vitamin A dusted on their prey, they get Herptivite.
I know that many people think that vitamins and D3 are best dosed every other week, but I prefer weekly supplementing in very small doses ( dusted with a makeup brush onto just a dozen crickets, out of the several prey items offered ). I am aware that they are montane and sensitive to over supplementation, but as growing juveniles and evidently depleted (slightly) imports, I think smaller, more frequent doses are helpful. I will tweak this regime, as the animals mature and begin eating more gut loaded prey. I discussed all of this, with actual labels being printed, so he could see the amounts of the various vitamins and minerals, with a very experienced veterinarian and have applied it to my parsons 10 years ago and my melleri, which had problems before I introduced a more thorough vitamin supplementation routine. I encourage montane keepers to take a look at Dendrocare, as its dosage is dialed down for tiny dart frogs and it is easier to use, without over doing it.


I appreciate the advice. I am not trying to sound like a know it all or be argumentative. In reality, the gut loading and supplements are certainly a separate issue from his not eating. I only offer explanations to convey that I am it ignorant or inexperienced and am making decisions as an informed individual and not without ample thought, research, and previous experience being applied.

I think I annoying longer going to take them outdoors. They have UVB from their reptisun, and handling them at all, even to allow them time in the sun is still handling and stressful. I remember WC melleri taking as long as 90 days to hand feed and not be spooked by me. These guys are definitely wary of me. I think a hands off approach, until they settle is my best option.

As for other points of advice, I am ailing fecals in, to be checked for a minimum of 3 months, to be sure things are ok. They had a thorough mouth and gum check at the vet. UVB is a new, linear, reptisun 10.0 T5, filtered through 30% shade cloth. Hydration is better than adequate. Humidity is 70-80%, without misting or humidification, due to a vast collection of plants grown in the Cham room ( literally 1,500 plant ), and there is lots of air movement, with ceiling fans, a cracked window, and a smaller fan, blowing through the bottom of their enclosure, though from the outside of the cage and invisible to the chams. The enclosure is sitting on top of a 6' tall shelf, so they feel as secure as they can feel, indoors.
I'll continue to monitor and disturb them as seldom as possible and give things more time. If he starts to appear or behave differently, I'll get him into the vet. I'm hoping this is all just related to being in a new home.

Both animals utilize their basking spots and while not active, per say, they do move about to different areas and levels in the cage, so brumation is unlikely. Even if he were attempting to brumate, I would think it unwise to allow him to do so, with a rubbery jaw, though I only have experience with very young, CBB parsons and am unsure how automatic (indepentant of day length, temperature, and moisture) brumation is for them. I imagine he'd need force feeding and/or liquid calcium, if he were set in brumation, at this point, but that would be a discussion to have with Dr.Stahl, if that bridge needs to be crossed.
 
I privately messaged OldChamKeeper and got some excellent advice. I had relocated the male after my post on Saturday, deciding that cohabitation for these guys was not working, although they were eating and cohabitating, with the seller.
At any rate, it seems that blocking their view of eachother was important, even though they are in separate, well planted enclosure, 4' away from one another, the male was apparently intimidated by the female, although there was no incidence of any sort of interaction with one another....they seemed indifferent to one another, but obviously that was not the case. Below is my update, I replied to OldChamKeeper, after some tweaking to the enclosure today and fingers are crossed that tomorrow will result in a renewed appetite and happy chams.




Reply/update:
I took your advice and although I had to move his cage closer to the female's, I blocked his view of her and of me, when I am servicing her cage. There is already instant improvement!
While she was never the concern, she began utilizing the other side of the enclosure, which she rarely did, ever, preferring to stay on one side, at the very top.
The male has colored up to a more healthy, happy, typical color and the darker colors are gone. He is also slightly less wary of me and exploring his cage.
I did not offer food for either today, though some crickets were still mulling about. I'll attempt to bowl feed, tomorrow, after he has had a good night's sleep, out of the big bad girl's view.
Thank you very much for this simple, but much needed suggestion. It seems to be the tweak that was needed.
 
Well, the particulars about their previous owner's setup might have had some subtle effect, or they had been in that setup long enough to reach some sort of equilibrium, then the move may have hit some sort of "reset" button for their territorial tendencies.
 
Here's a peekaboo shot from his new bachelor pad.
 

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Glad he is improving. Is this a wild caught or a captive bred? I can't imagine a wild caught ever having MBD (rubbery jaw). If he and the female came from the same seller, they likely came from the same person who raised them and there would seem to be problems with the husbandry for him to get MBD in a young male. It isn't something that developed over the last month or two. Since the vet believes you are dealing with MBD, I think it prudent to have x-rays done and really have a look at the bone status of both animals.

My understanding is that rubbery jaw is really serious MBD. Plain calcium on dusted food does not sound like and aggressive enough approach to this very serious disease. At the least, I would be giving a liquid calcium from the vet's twice a day. There is only so much calcium the gut can take up at anyone time so if you give a lot of calcium at once, most just passes through the gut and is never absorbed. That's why the twice a day is important. Calcium injections can be problematic (for one thing, if you overdose them you can stop the heart) so whomever is doing that had better know what they are doing.

As far as stimulating eating, active green insects or flying insects are the most appealing. I would not dust the feeders until he is actually eating well. A week or two won't make a difference and if it does, he needs better, more readily available calcium than a dust. Green banana cockroaches are really appealing to them. I use them to put a drop of Vitamin A on and hand feed my collection. Even the wild caughts that will leap off branches to avoid me will take a green banana roach from my hand. Their downside is that they fly, they climb, they are fast and they fit through the tiniest spaces you can imagine, which is why I only hand feed them. I also look for wild insects, especially green ones. I pull out all the stops if an animal is failing and not eating and dropping weight is a declining animal.

As far as your supplementation and gut load, I've found that whatever commercial food is fed to the feeder bugs has not left them after even many days or weeks after only feeding whole, natural foods. I never feed my feeders any commercial food for that reason since I have a species that is very susceptible to edemas that I believe are caused by supplements. I've put a lot of thought into supplements. I don't buy them for myself because I know from studies of human-grade supplements, they aren't what they say they are on the label and there are no regulations anyway. Reptile supplements would be less likely to be what they claim to be. Also, once you open a bottle, it immediately starts to deteriorate. (If you are going to use a bottled reptile supplement, put it in the fridge.) After all the reading and hand wringing I've done over supplements, I am to the point that I will only supplement with plain calcium and human-grade vitamin A once a month. I'm still not comfortable recommending that to people who buy my babies, but I'm getting there. Vitamin A, D and E are a fat soluble vitamins that are stored in the body, which is why you don't need to give it to them often. Vitamins such as the B complex and C are water soluble they are gone (in the urine) the day after you give them. I try to give the feeder insects good, wholesome natural foods and allow them to give my chameleons their vitamins. It isn't perfect that's for sure, which is why I try to give them variety of feeders plus wild caught insects as often as I can. I've found the chameleons seem to be more excited with a wild caught insect than the same insect that is a captive bred. I don't know why, but I think they might recognize something vital about them that I don't see.

Whether to force feed or not is always a dilemma. I would be very worried that you would do damage to his weak jaw attempting force feeding. Sometimes just getting some glucose into their blood stream along with hydration via sub-q fluids is enough to kick start them and get them out of their funk. Often it is just making them happy and relaxed by getting their environment right. Each species tends to prefer a different micro environment and it helps to know their natural history--just where are they found in the wild, how high off the ground, how much cover, etc.--to be able to get it right and make them happy. Just because two species of chameleons are endemic to the same location does not mean they will be happy in the same set up. Unhappy chameleons are stressed and sometimes they decide to just up and die on you.

Good luck.
 
Thank you so much for the time you put into your reply.
These are WC animals. I may be using the term rubbery jaw inappropriately. The vet gently squeezed the sides of both animal's jaws and the male's gave a little flex. It was subtle and not mishapen. He indicated he expected it to be firmer shortly, with good diet and routine supplementation. He was very thorough and he is a very well known, chameleon experienced vet.
The animals are young and perhaps the jaw isn't fully calcified at this age and he is just a bit behind in being more calcified? His joints are all fine and he had no other concerns with either animal's health.
I tend to agree with your explanation of supplements and vitamins. I only altered my approach after raising CBB melleri and experiencing issues without supplementing, as I do now. I all had a pair of CBB parsonii at that time, growing and thriving on my supplementation routine and gutload. I don't make arguments that my way is right or better, as I believe different care environments and even the individual animals can influence the need for supplements and it is really an individual decision and as long as it is coming from an educated person, with a watchful eye and sound reasoning, it's best to do what works for you.
I breed 9 species of roaches and offered hornworms. He pounded superworms and hornworms, on day 1 and superworms on day 2, and since he has not eaten voluntarily, except for perhaps and unknown, but inadequate number of crickets.
I will follow your advice and order some giant banana roaches, today. I really want to avoid force feeding him. It breaks trust, stresses them, and risk injury. I did break down and force him some roaches and hornworms.
Hopefully, by implementing additional visual barriers and being less hovering will help.
I am also implementing OldChamKeeper's approach with bowl feeding, and removing the feeders after a couple of hours, with no more free roaming crickets. I think that this will get him more interested and focused on meal time and allow me to track his intake more accurately. The female has noticeable gained weight, though I haven't weighed her, since the vet, since I am being as hands off as possible, at this stage.
I've acclimated WC, adult melleri that were in awful shape and these little parsonii are the picture of well handled imports, so it is perplexing to be so baffled by his refusal to feed. I have faith in his ability to adjust and I use judicious mistings to reduce stress and ensure hydration. I use an aquarium heater to heat the mist water and they revel in it, visibly drinking and running to the source of the water to drink as much as possible.
They were actually very well hydrated, when I received them, with nice white urates. If the next week doesn't bring about positive changes, I'll have to approach the vet and see what other approaches I can take. I'm all in, for the long haul, and will spare no effort or expense for their wellbeing.
 
Thank you so much for the time you put into your reply.
These are WC animals. I may be using the term rubbery jaw inappropriately. The vet gently squeezed the sides of both animal's jaws and the male's gave a little flex. It was subtle and not mishapen. He indicated he expected it to be firmer shortly, with good diet and routine supplementation. He was very thorough and he is a very well known, chameleon experienced vet.
The animals are young and perhaps the jaw isn't fully calcified at this age and he is just a bit behind in being more calcified? His joints are all fine and he had no other concerns with either animal's health.
I tend to agree with your explanation of supplements and vitamins. I only altered my approach after raising CBB melleri and experiencing issues without supplementing, as I do now. I all had a pair of CBB parsonii at that time, growing and thriving on my supplementation routine and gutload. I don't make arguments that my way is right or better, as I believe different care environments and even the individual animals can influence the need for supplements and it is really an individual decision and as long as it is coming from an educated person, with a watchful eye and sound reasoning, it's best to do what works for you.
I breed 9 species of roaches and offered hornworms. He pounded superworms and hornworms, on day 1 and superworms on day 2, and since he has not eaten voluntarily, except for perhaps and unknown, but inadequate number of crickets.
I will follow your advice and order some giant banana roaches, today. I really want to avoid force feeding him. It breaks trust, stresses them, and risk injury. I did break down and force him some roaches and hornworms.
Hopefully, by implementing additional visual barriers and being less hovering will help.
I am also implementing OldChamKeeper's approach with bowl feeding, and removing the feeders after a couple of hours, with no more free roaming crickets. I think that this will get him more interested and focused on meal time and allow me to track his intake more accurately. The female has noticeable gained weight, though I haven't weighed her, since the vet, since I am being as hands off as possible, at this stage.
I've acclimated WC, adult melleri that were in awful shape and these little parsonii are the picture of well handled imports, so it is perplexing to be so baffled by his refusal to feed. I have faith in his ability to adjust and I use judicious mistings to reduce stress and ensure hydration. I use an aquarium heater to heat the mist water and they revel in it, visibly drinking and running to the source of the water to drink as much as possible.
They were actually very well hydrated, when I received them, with nice white urates. If the next week doesn't bring about positive changes, I'll have to approach the vet and see what other approaches I can take. I'm all in, for the long haul, and will spare no effort or expense for their wellbeing.

OMG, please don't take this as advice! I gave you my thoughts to mull over. A different perspective is usually helpful.

Wild caughts are not for the meek! They are an absolute roller coaster.

Sometimes when we look at our own stock, we don't always see what is right in front of our eyes. Sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can see something you don't, even though you might see it in another's description of a problem or the live animal.

Good luck.
 
just a thought, you said you said you use a bowl for feeding, many wild caught chameleons don't recognize insects as food when they are in bowl try letting loose some grasshopper or anything that are good at climbing preferentially green ones.
 
Thanks everyone for their advice, perspectives, support, and encouragement. I'm expecting good results with him, this afternoon.

He does recognize food from bowls and he has ignored climbing feeders of all forms and colors, previously, but we'll be trying again, since some new comfort measures have been taken.
 
My pair of parsonii appear healthy, cleared their first vet check, and had their first clean fecal, and appear healthy in every way. The problem is that the male doesn't seem to be interested in anything I feed him. He loved superworm, so I stopped offering them, to encourage him to eat crickets, roaches, silkworms, BSF larva, hornworms, and so on. I bought housefly pupae to try, but after 4 days, at 85F, that have not hatched.
Both chams have been here for about 10 days.
His color appears good, he drinks and behaves normally, but he is noticeably thinner and refusing food.
The female eats with gusto.
Pictures of the enclosure can me seen in my album and the male is about 1' long.
I mist with heated water, via a MistKing for 2 30 min sessions and 1 15 min session, every day. Urates look good and he has defecated twice, consisting of 3, formed stools, one within his first 2 days and the other 2 a week later, on the same dayo. The basking temp is 85F-87F and ambients are between 75-78F, with a temp drop to 68F-70F at night. They have a reptisun 10.0 T5, shining through 30% sunblocking screen and I let them bask outdoors for 25-30min increments, a couple times a week, with no additional handling.
I use a makeup brush and dust about 1 dozen crickets daily and place roaches and a couple superworms and BSF larvae in feeder bowls, undusted. I feed the feeders a homemade gutload of greens, oranges, cantaloupe, grated winter squash, sweet potato, and hand picked wild greens. They have a dry gutload of spirulina, bee pollen, chia seed, blueberry powder, sunflower seeds, almonds, kelp powder, chlorella, almonds, less than 10% of high quality dog kibble, grain based cereals, and other dry ingredients.

I am concerned because the vet noted the tiniest amount of rubbery, but not mishaped jaw, and he indicated he should be just fine, once normal calcium was and plentiful food was introduced. If he isn't eating, he isn't getting that calcium.
Would you or should I force feed him a couple times a week or let him be and keep an eye on him? I've force fed chameleons before, so doing so isn't a problem, but I don't want to stress him out and if he isn't adjusting to new life, I'm sure handling him to force feed him won't speed that process up any.
Thanks in advanced.

I have two different types of lizards in my house. One is a young veiled chameleon (named Speedy) that I got as a Christmas gift. After getting him, he saw the vet within a few days.

Because, of the diet I put him on, he had an issue with his first shedding. He had skin trapped in his sinuses. I took him to the vet who cleared his sinuses. Not long after the visit to the vet, I noticed he was still having breathing issues and although he was hungry, he wouldn't eat. I took him back to the vet who found he had a bunch of stuff (not sure what it was... But it looked nasty). The vet got him all fixed up and suggested that I hand feed him or put him in a container without anything but his food (meaning no dirt or other loose material that could get stuck on his tongue when striking at food). She also made several other suggestions. Since changing how I feed him, his sheddings have gone great.

The reason I told you my story is because it's very important to have a good vet that you can call with questions and concerns. If something doesn't feel right about his appetite; I strongly request a call to your vet. Also I suggest that if you do take yours to the vet, arrange to have them keep it for a few hours. We see our pets more than the vet does. Giving your vet a few hours to observe can help a lot with getting an accurate diagnosis.
 
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Today's update:
The male is looking better in coloration, utilizing his cage, he passed stool, and he seems much happier. Unfortunately, he still refused food. I noted that the female did not like the feeder cup I'm offering now, though both chameleons ate from the previous cups. The previous cups were small, plastic, green flower pots, that I cut down and wired into place. The problem with them was that they drainage holes allowed too much water to accumulate and drown the feeders. I switched to a white pot ( easier to see the feeders against? ) and neither is having it. The female did eat, when I individually place feeders on the cage walls, so it wasn't the choice of prey. This tactic did not work on the male. I will be removing the bottoms of the green feeder cups and replacing them with screen and trying them again, as well as placing prey on the screen walls. I'm hopeful he is settling in and adjusting, as well as demanding a fitting royal catering to, and so cater to them I shall. I am sending his stool off to the vet for another check and we'll try for feeding again, tomorrow.
 
Takes about three days for a territory stressed wimp to find it's appetite. Go get it a large tomato worm and put it on the screen. Powder it up a bit with some calcium. I worked with way too many imports to not recognize the stress issue when I hear of it. Glad to be of help to a Parson keeper.

The rest of you can get off my lawn.
 
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