How locals are viewed

[Solid Snake]

How locales are viewed

Some thoughts, that I wouldnt mind getting feedback on:
This may seem lengthy/ridiculous, but I prefer to start from square one, and thoroughly discuss a subject as a whole, without leaving any gaps, or room for confusion, so bear with me.
(and yes, there is a point to this)

Here, I present the best definition of "locale" that I can find, that pertains to the point of what I will talk about.

That is, locale, as we use it in reference with chameleons.

local [ˈləʊkəl]
adj
1. characteristic of or associated with a particular locality or area
2. of, concerned with, or relating to a particular place or point in space

So we can safely say, that when someone refers to "locale" as pertaining to chameleons, they mean the region of the earth we find them in.

I have a chamelon that I refer to as being an "ambilobe".
It is my understanding, that this chameleon's ancestors came from the ambilobe region, of Madagascar.

Now I know for a fact, that his ancestors are from lines that have been selectively bred, in captivity, for many generations.

Yet, I assume(as I have never been to Ambilobe) that the chameleons that are found there, resemble my chameleon, and that a distinction can be made, from chameleons of other locales, such as ambanja.

Now, I wish to clarify, that all the animals in the world, are constantly evolving, and changing.

So, we can reason, that if all the chameleons in captivity right now, that are refered to as ambilobe, where isolated, and left to breed on there own, and all the chameleons that are actually in ambilobe were left to do the same, and we looked at them, after say, increments of one thousand years, that each group will have a different appearance, from that of which it has, right now.

Then we could ask, would the two groups evolve, to look different not only from the original group, but from each other?

I would hypothesize, that each group would have its own distinct general appearance, from both the original groups, as well as each other.

So, appearance of any animal, being a fleeting thing:

I ask, how important is the distinction of locales?

(I do not propose that it is not important, I only ask, "To what extent?")

The answer, without a doubt, would vary from person to person.

So you say, "No shit sherlock." Keep in mind, that there is a point here, I just want to be thorough, and say exactly what I mean to say, leaving as little room for assumption by the reader as possible.

I have heard someone mention, that their favorite locale, (that is, the appearance of the chameleon they like the best) has changed from that of which they originally liked. Not due to natural changing over time mind you, but due to the fact that somewhere, at sometime, chameleons that looked different than the ones they liked, where bred with the ones they liked.

Having something that was your favorite, go away, would dishearten any normal person. So right there, is a obvious, that anyone can understand, reason, for a person to not want locals to be mixed.

Others, may feel differently, and even like the new appearance that the mixing would produce.

Both persons opinions would be valid, as well as all opinions in between.

I have heard other persons mention, that any intermixing of any locales, is negligent, and an offense to that local. Making it seem as if humanity has no right to take such actions. I would propose the removal of a single chameleon from its natural habitat carries just as much weight, when it comes to impacting the natural evolution of that animal.

I have heard yet another person mention, that they do not think it is right to call my ambilobe, an ambilobe, if it has ambanja blood in it.

Why? Because there are those out there of the(valid) opinion, that the locales should not be mixed, or at least, that there should be lines kept pure. How would one know for certain, if they can breed a chameleon with another, and it be pure, if there are mixes out there?
Easy. Lines that are pure, are labeled as such, and lines that are mixed, are labled as such.

But wait you say, there are some that would disagree on which lines are pure, and which have been mixed.
What are we to do about this discrepancy?
Easy. As everyone has there own opinion, all they have to do is state that opinion. They agree to disagree, and make their own decisions on what animals they want to breed with their animals.

You mean, everyone doesnt need to come to the same consensus, and all fall in unison with just one persons opinion?
Yes, that is exactly what I mean.

...and the world will still go on, and I will be able to have my opinion, based on the facts that I have ascertained for myself?
Yes, I promise.

But I am of the opinion that what you call an ambanja, is an ambilobe, and we are both selling them as ambanjas, wont people get confused?
No. They have a right to make up their own mind, as do you about what they want to think and purchase.

But how do they know they are making an educated decision?
Easy. You provide them with what you know, and believe to be the truth, and why. If you want your opinion to be heard, you must voice it.

But where can I voice it, so that others can hear?
Anywhere you like, that you have the ability to do so.
I might suggest writing a blog stating your opinion, and why you hold such an opinion. I think that would be a safe way to do so, without fear of being censored, or attacked. That is just off the top of my head, Im sure their are other civil ways of going about it. Also, with a blog, you only have to type up the information once.

But is that really fair, to both me and the community at large?
Yes. Yes it is.

Just explain your whole opinion, in detail, and why you have it, from top to bottom. Put the facts out there.

If everyone that had different opinions was to do this, it would sufficiently kill any reason to argue, at the same time, all facts could be presented.

But what if some people dont believe my facts, and believe others that i disagree with?
Im sorry, they have that right, as do you.

But will this effect the monetary value of my chameleons?
I want to have an active role in how the public views locales, and the market in which they are sold.
I dont know, and dont care, money has never interested me, so I am not the one to ask. I would suggest the blog idea, and a website wouldnt hurt.

In the beginning of this post I asked for feedback on the information I present here.
To clarify, I am interested in feedback, on the information/opinion I present here, and nothing else.

"You only see what you want to see, you should see it all."

 

[Davonat]

The way I see it.... Breeders from day 1 have been selecting a certain look of a certain chameleon of a Locale and breeding for that look. So in escence they are in a way changing the look of that locale to their preferance, instead of just selecting any female from that locale like in the wild. Do any of the breeders have chams that look like the wild caughts from say, 30 yrs. ago? The wild caughts from now look different and the breeders pick the 1's they like.....

 

[Solid Snake]

This is a very good point that you bring up Davonat.

They are selectively bred in captivity, causing pure ambilobe lines to look different from the chameleons that are actually in ambilobe.

So, do you think the blood being from a specific region is what is important?

Or is it the look of the animal?

 

[Solid Snake]

Also, considering how chameleons skin works, does anyone know if it is possible to theorize that taking a F. pardalis population, and relocating it to another region of madagascar, could eventually over time, change the coloration to that of the local F. pardalis population?

Could just having them away from their natural environment, with its (somewhat) consistent ratios of light, humidity, temperatures, feeders, effect their coloration?

This seems plausible to me, but I am sure my knowledge is lacking to actually ascertain whether or not this is a technical possibility.

Id would seem important if it was though.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

I for one believe that all so called pure locales should be regestered. Just like AKC does for dogs. As a matter of fact I am in the process of creating such a regestry but it's not an easy thing to do because this would require a chip installed like the dogs which is harmless. If the panther is not in the regestry then it would not be considered pure breed. And ofcourse a line would have to be established with said chameleon for the offspring. The way things are going here and in Madagascar the specific locales will soon be the minority. The one thing that will turn me away from panthers because I like specific locales myself.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Wow i didnt anticipate reading that much when I woke up a short time ago haha. But its pretty damn good, as well as Daves point.

Good work man!

 

[Kali]

I would just like to thank Solid Snake for starting this conversation in such a diplomatic manner, however I am still somewhat undecided as to my stance on the subject.

Does it bother me that people breed crosses and the sell them as so? NO
Does it bother me that people intentionally breed crosses and sell them as one specific locale, knowing they are two? YES
Anything beyond this I feel I do not know enough about the consequences/ benefits of locale mixing/ misidentification, however this comment from Solid Snake did resonate with me:

“I have heard other persons mention, that any intermixing of any locales, is negligent, and an offense to that local. Making it seem as if humanity has no right to take such actions. I would propose the removal of a single chameleon from its natural habitat carries just as much weight, when it comes to impacting the natural evolution of that animal.”

And I think this is what it truly comes down to – are we hurting or helping this species?

 

[Kali]

I for one believe that all so called pure locales should be regestered. Just like AKC does for dogs. As a matter of fact I am in the process of creating such a regestry but it's not an easy thing to do because this would require a chip installed like the dogs which is harmless. If the panther is not in the regestry then it would not be considered pure breed. And ofcourse a line would have to be established with said chameleon for the offspring. The way things are going here and in Madagascar the specific locales will soon be the minority. The one thing that will turn me away from panthers because I like specific locales myself.

Wait, you want to put microchips in chameleons?

This kind of reasoning bothers me because if you go the way of the AKC standards for purebred panthers, as they did for dogs, we would soon have very inbred, unhealthy animals.

There has to be some kind of compromise, especially if one day we are no longer able to import the animals from Madagascar.

A healthy chameleon is worth far more than a "purebred" locale in my opinion.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Wait, you want to put microchips in chameleons?

This kind of reasoning bothers me because if you go the way of the AKC standards for purebred panthers, as they did for dogs, we would soon have very inbred, unhealthy animals.

There has to be some kind of compromise, especially if one day we are no longer able to import the animals from Madagascar.

A healthy chameleon is worth far more than a "purebred" locale in my opinion.

You would have more than enough chameleon blood lines. Not all breeds are related they do that for a certain look. And perhapes there could be some kind of DNA test done for wc speciamins once DNA differences has been established if there are any.

 

[Davonat]

This is a very good point that you bring up Davonat.

They are selectively bred in captivity, causing pure ambilobe lines to look different from the chameleons that are actually in ambilobe.

So, do you think the blood being from a specific region is what is important?

Or is it the look of the animal?

This is a tough 1.... I wonder how there can be such diversions of color in 1 locale.. For instance Ambilobe.... Shouldnt they all look similar? How can you have Blue bars w/ yellow bodys.... BB w/green bodys... Red Bars w/ green bodys..BB w/red bodys? Is Ambilobe region so big they have micro communities within it?

 

[Dean Pulcini]

This is a tough 1.... I wonder how there can be such diversions of color in 1 locale.. For instance Ambilobe.... Shouldnt they all look similar? How can you have Blue bars w/ yellow bodys.... BB w/green bodys... Red Bars w/ green bodys..BB w/red bodys? Is Ambilobe region so big they have micro communities within it?

I think alot has to to with geography mountains, rivers no dense trees where they wont cross open ground ect.

 

[robmd1]

You would have more than enough chameleon blood lines. Not all breeds are related they do that for a certain look. And perhapes there could be some kind of DNA test done for wc speciamins once DNA differences has been established if there are any.

dna too? goodluck with all that dean let us know how it goes

 

[Lizardlover]

I think it's also important to take onto account the morphological differences between locales. It's not just colors.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

dna too? goodluck with all that dean let us know how it goes

Your are one sarcastic dude. I try to come up with solutions too much negativity never helps. Instead of listening to grown men argue about the legitimacy of their chameleons.

 

[BocaJan]

Would this require patrols in Madagascar so an ambilobe wouldn't mate with an ambanja that was just hanging around at the border? Certainly there has to be some natural mixing. Who's to say what is really what?

 

[robmd1]

Your are one sarcastic dude. I try to come up with solutions too much negativity never helps.

maybe you shouldnt try to judge tone by type dean because you arnt good at it ill tell you that rite now... it wasnt sarcastic id wanna see how that works out.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

maybe you shouldnt try to judge tone by type dean because you arnt good at it ill tell you that rite now... it wasnt sarcastic id wanna see how that works out.

Back to name calling I see very mature. I saw what you called me before you deletd it.

 

[robmd1]

Back to name calling I see very mature.

lol if the shoe fits... like i said dean good luck with your ckc registered chipped an dna ed chams please let us know how that works out for ya.. its an idea ill give you that its not an orig one ive seen it talked about a few times before but think about it it all comes down to costs an people mite chip a cham maybe but dna? think about what your sayen dna tests arnt cheap whod pay for dna testin on every cham they have? people always lookin for a good deal on a cham i doubt they would pay for dna testing. was just thinkin about it what good does a chip do? does everyone have a scanner for to see chips? whod be scannin the chams? my chams are here an i know which one is which.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

lol if the shoe fits... like i said dean good luck with your ckc registered chipped an dna ed chams please let us know who that works out for ya..

Dont get upset with me because of your cross breed situation. I never had a comment about it. But will from here out.

 

[robmd1]

Dont get upset with me because of your cross breed situation. I never had a comment about it. But will from here out.

cross breed? i dont have any prob dean.. hey thats a nice mitsio on ya avitar do you have any recent pics of him? any recent pics of any of your chams dean? id love to see em. anyways some kind of registry would be awesome but chippin an dna i doubt would ever happen