Hoehnelii Care

Folks, I know you don't know me as I have never had a need to post on this forum, but if you would have read my first post in its entirety you would have had the answer to your question and known a little of my background, ie. I have been keeping chameleons successfully since the mid 90's.

I've never kept two chameleons in the same cage for anything other than breeding for a day. Also, keeping small chameleons in aquaria is not a bad way to keep them. The main problem that people had with keeping chameleons in aquaria in the late 80's and early 90's was that they were simply too small for the majority of the species being kept. A properly set up aquarium with live vegetation and a considerable temperature difference between the ends will provide adequate air circulation for chameleons. This is not conjecture. I know this for a fact as I have done so successfully many many times. Larger species simply need more space than an aquarium can provide. You want to know an easy way to solve this? Trash cans. Myself and others have bred veileds and panthers in trash cans. Do they provide more circulation than aquaria? No, but they work just fine. The dogmatic view of "chameleons must be in screen cages" has just become so entrenched that no one questions it any more. Chris Anderson has made some headway on breaking down this dogma and I would even go further to say that cross ventilation (Zoo med, exo terra) is not necessary if air flow is provided in other ways (temperature difference and live plants). *If you would like me to explain the physics and biology of how this works I would be happy to.

Now that I have furnished my hexagon aquarium with more "bushy" plants it provides everything the chameleon needs. I only posted on this site because I have never kept hoehnelii and I wanted some first hand advice from those that had. Despite Chris Anderson's very helpful post I am regretting posting here at all...
 
frankpayne32 said:
Folks, I know you don't know me as I have never had a need to post on this forum, but if you would have read my first post in its entirety you would have had the answer to your question and known a little of my background, ie. I have been keeping chameleons successfully since the mid 90's.

I've never kept two chameleons in the same cage for anything other than breeding for a day. Also, keeping small chameleons in aquaria is not a bad way to keep them. The main problem that people had with keeping chameleons in aquaria in the late 80's and early 90's was that they were simply too small for the majority of the species being kept. A properly set up aquarium with live vegetation and a considerable temperature difference between the ends will provide adequate air circulation for chameleons. This is not conjecture. I know this for a fact as I have done so successfully many many times. Larger species simply need more space than an aquarium can provide. You want to know an easy way to solve this? Trash cans. Myself and others have bred veileds and panthers in trash cans. Do they provide more circulation than aquaria? No, but they work just fine. The dogmatic view of "chameleons must be in screen cages" has just become so entrenched that no one questions it any more. Chris Anderson has made some headway on breaking down this dogma and I would even go further to say that cross ventilation (Zoo med, exo terra) is not necessary if air flow is provided in other ways (temperature difference and live plants). *If you would like me to explain the physics and biology of how this works I would be happy to.

Now that I have furnished my hexagon aquarium with more "bushy" plants it provides everything the chameleon needs. I only posted on this site because I have never kept hoehnelii and I wanted some first hand advice from those that had. Despite Chris Anderson's very helpful post I am regretting posting here at all...
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Again sorry for the missunderstanding but after Jeremeys answer I thought I was right with my guess. And sorry if my first post weren't as helpfull as Chris' ones.
About the aquarium thing: Can you give me some examples of more tricky species which were breed and raised multiple times with this method ? Sorry to say but I don't know any. It's one thing to keep adults this way but juveniles are a bit more difficult.
 
First, thank you for the apology. It just seemed like you assumed the worst right off the bat and were combative without cause both in terms of what type of cage I was keeping them in and also when I asked about what medications Chris was successful with.

I guess I would need to know what you would consider "tricky" species. Most of the sensitive species have not been bred for multiple generations in captivity under any husbandry regime. The species that I have had first hand experience keeping in aquaria are: pardalis, calyptratus, jacksonii and quadricornis.

You said: "It's one thing to keep adults this way but juveniles are a bit more difficult." My experiences are contrary to that. I have never kept adults in aquaria long term. However, all of the offspring I have raised (pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, jacksonii) were raised succesfully in aquariums or plastic pet pals which are in effect aquariums. They were all kept in aquria until they outgrew them then they were moved to more appropriately sized enclosures (large screen cages).

I fully grant that the species I have named are not "tricky" by any means. But, these are the species I have bred and kept successfully so these are the only ones that I can comment on with conviction. I have never kept hoehnelii this way or any other way. But, I would wager that my enclosure meets this animal's husbandry needs (light, heat, gas exchange, climbing surfaces, refugia, and nutrition) as far as I am aware of them.
 
frankpayne32 said:
First, thank you for the apology. It just seemed like you assumed the worst right off the bat and were combative without cause both in terms of what type of cage I was keeping them in and also when I asked about what medications Chris was successful with.

I guess I would need to know what you would consider "tricky" species. Most of the sensitive species have not been bred for multiple generations in captivity under any husbandry regime. The species that I have had first hand experience keeping in aquaria are: pardalis, calyptratus, jacksonii and quadricornis.

You said: "It's one thing to keep adults this way but juveniles are a bit more difficult." My experiences are contrary to that. I have never kept adults in aquaria long term. However, all of the offspring I have raised (pardalis, calyptratus, quadricornis, jacksonii) were raised succesfully in aquariums or plastic pet pals which are in effect aquariums. They were all kept in aquria until they outgrew them then they were moved to more appropriately sized enclosures (large screen cages).

I fully grant that the species I have named are not "tricky" by any means. But, these are the species I have bred and kept successfully so these are the only ones that I can comment on with conviction. I have never kept hoehnelii this way or any other way. But, I would wager that my enclosure meets this animal's husbandry needs (light, heat, gas exchange, climbing surfaces, refugia, and nutrition) as far as I am aware of them.
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Great that we can find back to a serious discussion. I count jacksonii and quadricornis to the tricky ones. So my question is: For how many months did you raise them this way ? And how tall were the plastic enclosures approx. ?
In my opinion it's possible to raise them this way but only if the enclosures are very low, which is much better for the inner climate.
 
I mostly use standard 10 gallon aquariums which are (20" L x 10" W x 13" H). I also used PetPal's which are basically plastic aquariums that are about half the size of a ten gallon. Phillepe DeVosjoli used to raise young chameleons in gold fish bowls with screen rubberbanded to the top openings. They would stay in these for about three-six months or until I was fully convinced that they were healthy and eating well. Keeping them this way allowed me to keep the offspring individually so that I could monitor how much they were eating and their overall daily conditions. I had much better success rates doing this then keeping them in larger screen cages in small groups. It is also easier to maintain humidity and temperatures this way as the young were much more sensitive to these things then adults.
 
frankpayne32 said:
I mostly use standard 10 gallon aquariums which are (20" L x 10" W x 13" H). I also used PetPal's which are basically plastic aquariums that are about half the size of a ten gallon. Phillepe DeVosjoli used to raise young chameleons in gold fish bowls with screen rubberbanded to the top openings. They would stay in these for about three-six months or until I was fully convinced that they were healthy and eating well. Keeping them this way allowed me to keep the offspring individually so that I could monitor how much they were eating and their overall daily conditions. I had much better success rates doing this then keeping them in larger screen cages in small groups. It is also easier to maintain humidity and temperatures this way as the young were much more sensitive to these things then adults.
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Did you never had any problems with infections because of the standing air ? About de Vosjoli: I won't use him as a reference. I can't take him serious as long as this guy is writing books about EVERY topic and aspect of keeping reptiles/amphibians/insects/spiders.
 
eisentrauti said:
Did you never had any problems with infections because of the standing air ? About de Vosjoli: I won't use him as a reference. I can't take him serious as long as this guy is writing books about EVERY topic and aspect of keeping reptiles/amphibians/insects/spiders.
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I have never had any problems with infections of any kind. You really should take DeVosjoli seriously. There is a reason he writes about all of these things: he has kept and bred them all. I know this first hand for a fact. You should consider him the father of chameleon husbandry. Without his pioneering experiences chameleon husbandry would not be where it is today. This is not opinion, he and several like him solved many of the problems that plagued early chameleon keepers.
 
frankpayne32 said:
I have never had any problems with infections of any kind. You really should take DeVosjoli seriously. There is a reason he writes about all of these things: he has kept and bred them all. I know this first hand for a fact. You should consider him the father of chameleon husbandry. Without his pioneering experiences chameleon husbandry would not be where it is today. This is not opinion, he and several like him solved many of the problems that plagued early chameleon keepers.
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I heard completely other stuff about him...
 
frankpayne32 said:
Well then we will have to agree to disagree. I will just point out that my opinion is based upon actually working with him on a few things and not by second hand talk.
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Of course I accept that. I have just searched a bit about him and I found out that he is publishing about chameleons since the 80s. So my informations are probably wrong.
 
The fish bowl method does work well for neonates. You can put one or two per bowl and its much easier to control feeding and humidity concerns. Like the op Ive used ten gallon tanks and even larger aquaria for neonates. (i tried using a lizard lounge by Oceanic for one clutch) The smaller the enclosure the easier it was to control the humidity needs and the feeding issues. I was diligent in checking temps and making sure the cages didnt dry out too long or get too warm. The lizard lounge worked very well actually but cleaning it was a pita and making sure everyone was eatting enough was almost impossible. It retained humidity very well though and it had ventilation openings in three sides for good gas exchange and heat reduction. I ended up having to split the group into 3 seperate enclosures for ease of feeding mainly. I was raising ambanjas and veileds back in the 90's this way.
 
Texas Panther Man said:
The fish bowl method does work well for neonates. You can put one or two per bowl and its much easier to control feeding and humidity concerns. Like the op Ive used ten gallon tanks and even larger aquaria for neonates. (i tried using a lizard lounge by Oceanic for one clutch) The smaller the enclosure the easier it was to control the humidity needs and the feeding issues. I was diligent in checking temps and making sure the cages didnt dry out too long or get too warm. The lizard lounge worked very well actually but cleaning it was a pita and making sure everyone was eatting enough was almost impossible. It retained humidity very well though and it had ventilation openings in three sides for good gas exchange and heat reduction. I ended up having to split the group into 3 seperate enclosures for ease of feeding mainly. I was raising ambanjas and veileds back in the 90's this way.
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That's pretty much the same experiences I've had. Aquariums are just easier to raise youngsters.
 
Yeah Im just gettin seriously back into breeding again after a 10 yr break. Im def going to use solid sided enclosures for my neo's. I will prob use tubs this time and cut a cpl of vents to allow some airflow/chimney affect. But in essence the same basic principle as using a glass aquaria. Just without the worry of glass breakage and I could even jerry rig a drainage sytem in a rubber made tote to make my life easier. And eliminate any standing water from mistings. Im trying to figure out how im going to make that now beforehand. Good to see some old time keepers on her Frankpayne. Were you a Cin member back in the day?
 
Texas Panther Man said:
Yeah Im just gettin seriously back into breeding again after a 10 yr break. Im def going to use solid sided enclosures for my neo's. I will prob use tubs this time and cut a cpl of vents to allow some airflow/chimney affect. But in essence the same basic principle as using a glass aquaria. Just without the worry of glass breakage and I could even jerry rig a drainage sytem in a rubber made tote to make my life easier. And eliminate any standing water from mistings. Im trying to figure out how im going to make that now beforehand. Good to see some old time keepers on her Frankpayne. Were you a Cin member back in the day?
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Sounds like you have a good idea for a raising set up. I am in a very similar situation. I worked with them like crazy years ago and am now just getting back into lizards after a five year break. But I've still kept them working at the zoo this whole time. I was a member of the CIN from its beginning. That was (and still is) a wonderful source of information as well as a great way to meet people.
 
Yeah Ardi was awesome. I talked to her for hrs back in the late 90's. I still have my Cin T-shirt with the nosey be and the orchid on front. lol It sure was harder to connect with cham people back then. The nets made things so much easier on the new cham keepers. We had to make all our own cages and finding breeders and chams was a pain. But i do think people exchanged ideas and helped each other more. We were all learning and trying to perfect our husbandry methods. It seems like now everyones a know it all and their ways the only correct one.
 
Texas Panther Man said:
Yeah Ardi was awesome. I talked to her for hrs back in the late 90's. I still have my Cin T-shirt with the nosey be and the orchid on front. lol It sure was harder to connect with cham people back then. The nets made things so much easier on the new cham keepers. We had to make all our own cages and finding breeders and chams was a pain. But i do think people exchanged ideas and helped each other more. We were all learning and trying to perfect our husbandry methods. It seems like now everyones a know it all and their ways the only correct one.
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Well said, you are definitely bringing up a lot of positive memories of cham keeping in the 90's. It's funny, I just noticed you're from Houston. While I've spent my entire adult life in Pennsylvania I was born in and spent part of my childhood in Clear Lake in Houston.
 
Really, Clear Lake is huuuge now man. Traffic down that way is a nightmare. I live about 10 mins from Intercontinental Airport in Kingwood. So Im out in the burbs where its boring. CLear Lakes where are the partiers hang/live. My best friend lives in Clear Lake and has a big powerboat on the lake. Cool place to live if you dont have any kids.
 
Texas Panther Man said:
Really, Clear Lake is huuuge now man. Traffic down that way is a nightmare. I live about 10 mins from Intercontinental Airport in Kingwood. So Im out in the burbs where its boring. CLear Lakes where are the partiers hang/live. My best friend lives in Clear Lake and has a big powerboat on the lake. Cool place to live if you dont have any kids.
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I didn't realize that. Granted it was a long time ago but I don't remember it being too crazy when i was a kid.
 
frankpayne32 said:
Thank you Chris. I was hoping that you would respond. I have read many of your posts in the past. I agree about the rock structure. I originally constructed this terrarium with something else in mind. While I think the air circulation is probably fine, I think you are right that it is not ideal for a chameleon. I will likely set it up in something more appropriate soon.

If you don't mind, I have a few more questions. What dewormer have you had the best luck with for this species and what regimen? While this doesn't apply for this time of year, at what temperatures would you expect to see heat stress from this species? Thanks again.
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Sorry for the delay in my reply. I've treated T. hoehnelii with panacur and I'd have to go back and try to find my notes on it, but I seem to recall with individuals with known extremely high lung worms loads (based on necropsy of multiple individuals from the same shipment) we used 3 treatments at 2 week intervals.

As for heat stress in this species, I've had them at an ambient temp of about 85F during the afternoon with no visible issues as long as adequate hydration was provided.

eisentrauti said:
as Chris, I have kept and breed hoehneliis from Kenya and Uganda but from my experiences the Kenyan ones are quite easier to keep, I think it just depends on the source you got them from.
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Are the Kenyan specimens you guys get in Europe also from this farm in Kenya that is supposedly farm raising them? That is where the US ones are coming from and I've been generally less than impressed.

frankpayne32 said:
I have since taken your advice Chris and added a ficus and shefellera to the male's enclosure. I have also added a mercury vapor UV bulb to supplement the fluorescent lighting. He seems to appreciate both. He is more active and his coloration is more consistently better. Unfortunately, the female died two days ago. As I suspected when I bought her she was gravid. I performed a necropsy and there were four neonates that appeared like they were approaching full term. They had also expired by the time I removed them. Like many livebearing species the stress of importation on a gravid female was too much. As sad as that is I am hopeful for the male. I have had him for a month now and he looks better every day. Here are some updated pictures of the enclosure and the male:
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Sorry to hear about the female but the male is definitely looking better. The only think I'd generally caution about is the MV bulb. I only use them on the largest of my chameleon enclosures (6' tall+) as they give off high radiance levels and quite a bit of heat. It looks like you have it a good ways away but just make sure the radiance levels aren't too high where the chameleon is basking. There used to be a bunch of general radiance info on these bulbs on http://www.uvguide.co.uk but it looks like they've taken them down. You can still see it in the web archive, however: http://web.archive.org/web/20080605134549/www.uvguide.co.uk/mercvapourfloods.htm

Texas Panther Man said:
Really, Clear Lake is huuuge now man. Traffic down that way is a nightmare. I live about 10 mins from Intercontinental Airport in Kingwood. So Im out in the burbs where its boring. CLear Lakes where are the partiers hang/live. My best friend lives in Clear Lake and has a big powerboat on the lake. Cool place to live if you dont have any kids.
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I lived in Katy a number of times as a child and every time I'm there to visit family I'm amazing how much that area has changed since I left.

Chris
 
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