High protein bug diets

[Kaizen]

We are told not to feed our feeders things like dog food because the protein levels are super high, and this can lead to a build up of uric acid in our bugs. This in turn is not good for our chams because it is suspected it can play a role in the development of ailments such as gout.

I think I’m right about this...(?)

So if dog food is our metric, it seems we ought to be aiming for protein levels less than dog food...right? Anybody have a protein % range for most dog foods?

 

[Beman]

Check this out... https://www.store.repashy.com/can-feeder-insect-diets-contribute-to-gout-in-reptiles.html

 

[Kaizen]

So it looks like most commercial dog food brands boast between 20 and 30% protein. So, this is, by our standards, too high. Interestingly, some of our leading commercial “bug” diets have a protein range of 12-16%. That appears to jive: dog food has twice as much protein. Ok, so far, so good. Now, I was just looking at the protein spread of one of our most treasured ingredients and for every 5 grams of the product, there is 1 gram of protein. That lands the product in the lower end of the dog food range. So, too high right? Well, if used in small amounts, it’s probably no big deal; but feed it to your bugs, and coat these same insects in it before feeding, and I wonder if if we’re overdoing it.

The product: bee pollen.
Not knocking its benefits, but too much of a good thing and all that...

 

[Kaizen]

Again, not empirical evidence by any means; merely the logical ends of some cherished intuitions:

If you think 20% protein is too high, and product x has 20% protein, then it is the part of prudence to use x in moderation.

 

[Kaizen]

And yes, I fully expect to be kicked out of several of my Fb groups if a particular moderator ever finds out my name is Chris Young.

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

Probably not the best source but it supports some of its claims on studies. https://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/dubia-roaches-dietary-protein

 

[Beman]

And yes, I fully expect to be kicked out of several of my Fb groups if a particular moderator ever finds out my name is Chris Young.

 

[CasqueAbove]

So it looks like most commercial dog food brands boast between 20 and 30% protein. So, this is, by our standards, too high. Interestingly, some of our leading commercial “bug” diets have a protein range of 12-16%. That appears to jive: dog food has twice as much protein. Ok, so far, so good. Now, I was just looking at the protein spread of one of our most treasured ingredients and for every 5 grams of the product, there is 1 gram of protein. That lands the product in the lower end of the dog food range. So, too high right? Well, if used in small amounts, it’s probably no big deal; but feed it to your bugs, and coat these same insects in it before feeding, and I wonder if if we’re overdoing it.

The product: bee pollen.
Not knocking its benefits, but too much of a good thing and all that...

The key part here is too much, too much of anything is bad. When you use bee pollen you are striving towards nature.

So why would someone dust wrong with bee pollen, but not other supplements.
You have to think "Nature" how much pollen does a bee carry on average, up to30% of its weight. We can visualize this amount. Bees are not heavily covered.

The second part of the equation is that "Protein" is generic term. Different proteins are processed differently in the body. This is where my knowledge ends.

Comparing to dog food. 2 brands may boast 28% but the one that has most of its proteins coming from animal products is better for your dogs.

 

[Kaizen]

The key part here is too much, too much of anything is bad. When you use bee pollen you are striving towards nature.

So why would someone dust wrong with bee pollen, but not other supplements.
You have to think "Nature" how much pollen does a bee carry on average, up to30% of its weight. We can visualize this amount. Bees are not heavily covered.

The second part of the equation is that "Protein" is generic term. Different proteins are processed differently in the body. This is where my knowledge ends.

Comparing to dog food. 2 brands may boast 28% but the one that has most of its proteins coming from animal products is better for your dogs.

I hear ya, but a complete protein source is, theoretically, a complete protein source = a collection of all nine essential amino acids. Obviously, this can’t be the whole story, since cat for eg are obligate carnivores, so something about animal based protein sources must give them something in addition to (or otherwise make accessible) the nine essential amino acids...I think...

However, I think @ferretinmyshoes had a point about how the use of bee pollen ends up being digested (?) and disseminated by the various online sources. Reading some threads/posts/sources one would think there’s a certain level of unreflective bee pollen “hysteria”—to quote the slightly hyperbolic (is that an oxymoron?) language of one of its greatest proponents.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I hear ya, but a complete protein source is, theoretically, a complete protein source = a collection of all nine essential amino acids. Obviously, this can’t be the whole story, since cat for eg are obligate carnivores, so something about animal based protein sources must give them something in addition to (or otherwise make accessible) the nine essential amino acids...I think...

However, I think @ferretinmyshoes had a point about how the use of bee pollen ends up being digested (?) and disseminated by the various online sources. Reading some threads/posts/sources one would think there’s a certain level of unreflective bee pollen “hysteria”—to quote the slightly hyperbolic (is that an oxymoron?) language of one of its greatest proponents.

There is defiantly something else.

As far as ferrit goes, they seem to bee using a lot of false logic, and I have lost respect. I expect vet to be at a higher standard.

All those links, then says hasn't read them, they are not Cham specific. But they indicated "Sufficient for other lizards" I am not needing general 90s knowledge.

I am looking for Cham specific and optimal not sufficient.

Then that person inaccurately spread the idea that bee pollen caused liver damage. They tried to correct it, but coming from a vet that spread's false information that can be harmful.

 

[Kaizen]

There is defiantly something else.

As far as ferrit goes, they seem to bee using a lot of false logic, and I have lost respect. I expect vet to be at a higher standard.

All those links, then says hasn't read them, they are not Cham specific. But they indicated "Sufficient for other lizards" I am not needing general 90s knowledge.

I am looking for Cham specific and optimal not sufficient.

Then that person inaccurately spread the idea that bee pollen caused liver damage. They tried to correct it, but coming from a vet that spread's false information that can be harmful.

I respect your view here. However, my experience of that exchange was different. The scientific journals are not exactly replete with Chameleon specific, peer-reviewed articles, and a certain amount of generalization is probably necessary. Likewise, one of the most influential articles about chameleon supplementation (the Deirenfield pardalis study) isn’t exactly new. Also, a more recent publication about the biology of chameleons makes pretty clear how little we actually know—a publication edited by serious academics.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I respect your view here. However, my experience of that exchange was different. The scientific journals are not exactly replete with Chameleon specific, peer-reviewed articles, and a certain amount of generalization is probably necessary. Likewise, one of the most influential articles about chameleon supplementation (the Deirenfield pardalis study) isn’t exactly new. Also, a more recent publication about the biology of chameleons makes pretty clear how little we actually know—a publication edited by serious academics.

I am not looking at the exchange, just what facts they passed. Unless I missed something I did not see it.

 

[Kaizen]

I am not looking at the exchange, just what facts they passed. Unless I missed something I did not see it.

I’d have to go over it again, but I haven’t known ferret to ever use bad logic. Anyways, I’m glad to hear dissenting views: they spur investigation.

 

[nightanole]

Cricket crack has the highest tolerable protein that a dubia bin can handle to prevent die offs (the orginal formula was great for crickets, but would cause dubia die offs after a few months).

Crude Protein (min) ...... 16%

And for more context , bug burger is Crude Protein min. 13% .

 

[Gryllidae Per Kcal]

Cricket crack has the highest tolerable protein that a dubia bin can handle to prevent die offs (the orginal formula was great for crickets, but would cause dubia die offs after a few months).

Crude Protein (min) ...... 16%

Where did you get the crude protein? One reason I never used cricket crack was because I couldn't find a guaranteed analysis.

 

[nightanole]

Where did you get the crude protein? One reason I never used cricket crack was because I couldn't find a guaranteed analysis.

Dont know which website, i just have my notes from years ago...

More Info
Cricket Crack is designed to increase the nutritional benefit of insects before they are fed. This is a dry gut-load only, but can be mixed into a paste by adding water. Use of Fresh veggies and fruit, water crystal, to supply insects with moisture is another option when using this dry gut-load.
Use sparingly. A little go's a long ways. Refrigeration will extend product life.
Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) ...... 16%
Crude Fat (min) ...... 3%
Crude Fiber (max) ...... 11%
Moisture (max) ...... 10%
Ingredients: Alfalfa, Calcium, Dehydrated Milk, Canadian field peas, Pearled barley, Oat groats, Safflower, Maple peas, Dry Fruit mix, Spirulina, White beans, Pink beans, Small Red beans, Black beans, Bee pollen, Vitamin C, Folic acid, Acidophilus.

And for bug burger
https://www.store.repashy.com/bug-burger-4-oz-bag.html

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Another key to remember here is that not all proteins are the same. Animal based proteins (as usually used in dog foods) have more amino acids types than plant based proteins and depending on the type of amino acids they are broken down into different waste products. Animal based protein amino acids tend to be more complex and thus have more effect on kidneys as they are eliminated from the body. Plant based amino acids are easily to break down meaning they make waste products that are easier to eliminate. So just looking at protein percentages is not the whole picture, you also have to look at the source of the protein.

Nothing with nutrition is simple.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I’d have to go over it again, but I haven’t known ferret to ever use bad logic. Anyways, I’m glad to hear dissenting views: they spur investigation.

That was the point, I was actually looking for something. We don't know all so if there is info out there I want to hear it. I am continually adjusting.

Mostly I still don't know what their point was. Other than people misuse bee pollen by coating too much.

We really don't know and that is the point. Right now I try to match nature until we learn otherwise.

I was hoping for more. Pollen is part of their natural diet, but that is all we know. I would love something on how pollen is processed in the chameleon. Maybe they don't use it, and an explanation on how the process works. This is what I was hoping for. There just wasn't any thin there and I still don't know what they suggest. It seeded like they were saying that the prepackaged was best? and the rest is not necessary?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

@CasqueAbove unfortunately there are no studies at the data you seek, much to my dismay as well. My point on that particular topic is that the perception of it being "safe and natural" can lead to overuse and I've seen some problems occur a bit too coincidentally after starting bee pollen too many times for me not to at least scratch my head and wonder if there is a correlation. Especially in the US "safe and natural" tends to mean "use as much you want!" and I just want to raise the flag of awareness a little that we don't know the full relationship of how it is processed or even what it contains compared to natural pollen sources of their home range so using it in moderation is safer in my opinion. I broke down the math of what a bee can carry in pollen in relationship to how much the bees comprise natural diet to highlight that it is still a miniscule amount of pollen ingested even if it is a main feeder source so heavily using bee pollen is not consistent with what is happening in the wild. So if we're going to try to match nature we need to be aware of what nature actually is and be judicious about using it.

 

[CasqueAbove]

@ferretinmyshoes is this what you were saying ?
It seeded like they were saying that the prepackaged was best? and the rest is not necessary?

I don't necessarily disagree, as I feed my Macaw pelleted food for better nutrition, so it would be a bit hypocritical of me without some kind of proof as to the difference. And I am far from that.
At the same time I would expect we have better knowledge of our birds nutrition than chameleons.

If you do find something I do want to see, nothing is fixed in my mind I just need reason to change.

On a side note, I have a paper on Calcium, and D3 in vitamin form vs uvb, that I am interested in, It is just way past my knowledge to understand it. If you are interested.