Help!!!!

[Jason]

the daddy is usually a clutch mate cause whoever was the breeder kept them together too long.

What exactly are you basing this on? That's a pretty definite statement.

The actuality of the situation is that 99% of all Chamaeleo (tr.) jacksonii xantholophus in the US are WC animals either from Hawaii or from a wild population in CA. There is no way to know who the sire is, and to blindly assume that the "breeder" allowed inbreeding to occur while you would not is a little out of line.

 

[Frank Castle]

I dont mean to add fuel to the fire, but......If the Jackson was from Hawaii, There isnt a naturall selection there so wouldnt there be some form of inbreeding in the line from the original 36 that were set free?

Frank

 

[Jason]

Yes, in both populations there would most likely be instances of line breeding or inbreeding occuring.

Inbreeding or line breeding in a wild population is quite different than a breeder allowing siblings to mate by being an irresponsible keeper as was suggested in the previous post.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Your understanding of selection is a bit off. IF you took just a pair of chameleons, and had them start a founder population, in the wild, anywhere, they would be subject to natural selection. Inbreeding is a necessityin small populations.

That's the beauty of natural selection - it filters out deleterious genes, less-suitable phenotypes, or even behaviors that are incompatible to the long term health of the population.

Inbreeding is, over time, esentially a non-issue when you have selective factors eliminating the sickly and ill animals. Any of the "bad" genes isolated by breeding with a small gene pool will be nixed by selective forces.

So, even though the population was founded by a small genetic pool, it is proably quite healthy.

Now, if those animals were not subject to selective forces, like in captivity... well, then you have issues.

the chameleons wild in the US are, in effect, evolving to live in their new territories. In time, you'll see a difference in behavior, appearance, and requirements for them. Natural selection happens even if they're not in their natural range.

 

[Frank Castle]

Your understanding of selection is a bit off. IF you took just a pair of chameleons, and had them start a founder population, in the wild, anywhere, they would be subject to natural selection. Inbreeding is a necessityin small populations.

That's the beauty of natural selection - it filters out deleterious genes, less-suitable phenotypes, or even behaviors that are incompatible to the long term health of the population.

Inbreeding is, over time, esentially a non-issue when you have selective factors eliminating the sickly and ill animals. Any of the "bad" genes isolated by breeding with a small gene pool will be nixed by selective forces.

So, even though the population was founded by a small genetic pool, it is proably quite healthy.

Now, if those animals were not subject to selective forces, like in captivity... well, then you have issues.

the chameleons wild in the US are, in effect, evolving to live in their new territories. In time, you'll see a difference in behavior, appearance, and requirements for them. Natural selection happens even if they're not in their natural range.

I used Natural Selection out of context. You are correct. I was just meaning that the line started from a select few. And at this point there are no known ill effects from this small group because of Natural Selection. I understand that Natural Selection is "Only The Strong Survive/Breed" And of course in Captivity it is up to the breeder to chose the "Best of the Best" for breeding. How ever on that note if the weak are bred, out of ignorance or for profit, or what ever the reason, that is where we will have problems with defects/unhealthy chams. With out the information of where the cham came from there is no way to determine whether it was Imbred by a breeder, or WC and bred in the wild. Thanks for your post

Frank

 

[ChameleonsTree]

What exactly are you basing this on? That's a pretty definite statement.

The actuality of the situation is that 99% of all Chamaeleo (tr.) jacksonii xantholophus in the US are WC animals either from Hawaii or from a wild population in CA.
what do you base your 99% on?

 

[Heika]

what do you base your 99% on?

When was the last time you saw an importer selling jacksonii xantholophus imported from Africa? To my knowledge, I never have.

If I was in the market for a jacksonii I would not hesitate to purchase from Iris, if she were selling. The neonates that she is raising represent what is available. I seriously doubt that, genetically, there are better.. or worse.

Heika

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Itis my understanding that ALL of the xanths in the US are decended from hawaiian stock. considering that the captive population is pretty good, and they are colonizing not only hawaii, but CA and FL, it's pretty safe to bet that there are selective forces at work.

now, with captive breeders, that's different altogether. Take veileds, for instance:

Wild veileds lay smaller clutches - say 20 eggs. Many will not hatch, more will not crawl out of the nest, and many more still will die before maturity. Of those, only a few will secure territory and mate. Factor in females with reproductive problems, and only a few animals out of several clutches probably ever reproduce.

In captivity, over several generations, nearly all of them hatch, most of those live long enough to be sold, and many of them will be breeders. Factor in the giant clutches people get with them, and you can see how it's an issue.

Calyptratus in captivity have a HUGE gene pool - but there's no filter.

 

[Jason]

what do you base your 99% on?

I base my 99% statement on my knowledge of the captive situation of this species, the nearly 14 years of working chameleons and the many times I have not only imported this species from Hawaii but produced captive offspring. I know where these animals are coming from and I have a good grasp on who is producing true CB offspring.

What are you basing your statements on?

 

[ChameleonsTree]

When was the last time you saw an importer selling jacksonii xantholophus imported from Africa? To my knowledge, I never have.

If I was in the market for a jacksonii I would not hesitate to purchase from Iris, if she were selling. The neonates that she is raising represent what is available. I seriously doubt that, genetically, there are better.. or worse.

Heika

I know many people who have been breeding them for quite some time. Now i don't know who is bringing them in from hawaii since it is illegal according to Hawaii Dept of Agriculture. My original post was not put there to create such hostility.

 

[Jason]

Permits are available in very limited numbers to export small lots of Ch. (tr.) jacksonii xantholophus to the mainland. You can also acquire a permit to collect limited specimens for personal use and send them back to the mainland. The numbers coming out of Hawaii are very low compared to the numbers in the mid 90's but they are still trickling in. as Eric stated the wild populations in CA and FL are a result of Hawaiian jacksons being released in these areas and while technically not "from" Hawaii, they are share a common link.

I too know of several people who have been breeding jacksons for quite some time and I stand behind my 99% number.

 

[ChameleonsTree]

I take that back...after further digging and a call to the dept they told me that info from the site is old and they do export if someone obtains a permit

 

[Iris]

Thanks for your help everyone! I have learned a lot from all of your comments. I got the crickets in the mail, and everyone ate today. Those pinheads are so much tinier than I imagined!

I'm sorry to cause such confusion on here. The babies are absolutely adorable, and I love them...even if they are little inbreds. None of them have 2 heads or 3 eyes or anything...they all seem pretty healthy.

I will keep you all updated on their progress.

Thanks,
Brandi (Iris)

 

[Sean]

Emergency Food

Iris,chameleon babies and not having food for them go hand in hand. One thing you can do in a pinch is put rotten fruit in a container and rubberband a piece of window screen over it. Make several and place them throughout the enclosure to minimize competition for food. It won't take long before fruit flies find them. This is, of course, providing you have your babies outdoors, in a screen enclosure. Always put any outdoor enclosure housing babies elevated above a tray of water to protect them from ants, always. Another quick food method is to take a 5 gallon bucket, throw in fruit and vegetable scraps, put the bucket in a remote, sunny part of your yard (if possible) and in a couple of days you should have a steady population of flies. When you see them buzzing about, creep up on the bucket and cover it quickly with a large plastic bag. They will fly up into the bag (if not, shake bucket) then quickly close the bag and tie it shut. Place the bag in your freezer for 30 seconds (or until they stop moving), remove bag and quickly start picking out the house flys only, (some flys have a hard carapace babies can't digest) pinch off their wings and toss them into the enclosure before they revive.
Yet another technique is harvesting field plankton. Take a fine mesh butterfly net and swing your arm in a figure 8 motion, brushing through the grass. You'd be surprised what you can find in a small patch of grass. Any wild caught insects run the risk of being contaminated with chemicals. Crickets are your best bet for success. I would place another order right now, or you may find yourself in the same situation in a few days.

 

[Damaranum]

Hi Iris first congrats with your newborns.

An other way to optain food is placing traps for them outside. There are two things you can do to collect flies. First and best is crush a banana in a bowl or something and just put it outside. Depending on the weather and temperature you will soon see some fruit flies coming to the bowl. Those have a great nutrical value and almost all youngh chams love them.

The second way to atrrack the bigger flies by hanging some fish outside (not to close to your home regarding the smell). This will atrackt the other flies which you can catch with a net.

Further I wish you look with the new babies.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

The best way to procure EMERGENCY food for babies is to ask your local University's genetics department if you go through their trash.

Seriously.

Find the genetics department, and slink around the place until you find some grad students doing experiments. Tell them you situation, and ask if they have any drosophilia cultures that are not treated with any chemicals. Most will be clean - I've never found any that were given any chemicals - it's genetic studies they're concerned about.

Every day, NCSU throws away dozens of fruit fly cultures - some still producing healthy quantities of flies, some dead, and many more in between.

You can ask if they know which ones are flightless - some will be, most wont' - it depends on who's doing what kinds of experiments. Try to get flightless if you can.

If it's an emergency, there are ways around it.

Every time I've been there, I cherry pick the best cultures, and get a good half-dozen fresh, full cultures. I also get a dozen or so "ok cultures" and many many high quality vials and other containers, free of charge - they throw this stuff away!

Sometimes, this can save your babies lives. If a shipment of pinheads or FF comes in DOA, this can at least help them hold out.

The problem with flying fruit flies is a tough one - they will escape. Most baby cages aren't of a small enough screen size to prevent their escape, either. The trick is to immobilize them for as long as possible.

I've tried cooling them down first, but it's tricky, and by the time they'r emoving enough for the chameleons to recognize them, they're flying away.

The best way of feeding flying fruit flies to baby chameleons invlolves dusting them. Take the FF culture, and another container, with an opening just a little bigger then the opening of the culture. Fill the second container will an appropriate suplement (I use minerall 0 most of the time for this, as vitamins are more likely to oversupplement babies than straight minerals). Smack the culture against something, knocking the FF to the bottom (this gives you a second or two), and then remove the top, and shake them into the new container. Quickly, shake them around vigorously. Some will fly, but they usually won't fly well with the minerals stuck to their wings. Dump them into a feeding dish, and hope the little squirts can eat them before they clean their wings off!