Help!!! Very sick panther

[Jeag]

Cage Type - It's a very large custom made glass tank, has screen front and top though for ventilation.
What are the dimensions? Not sure but I know it's a 50 gallon tank
Lighting - Not sure on brand but he has a large strip uvb light, a 75w tropical day lamp, and a 60w night lamp.
What is your daily lighting schedule? Day lights turn on at 7am and off at 8:30pm and night lamp kicks on.
Temperature - What temp range have you created? 82-92 F in baking and 68-70 in bottom
Lowest overnight temp? 69
How do you measure these temps? Digital temp gauges.
Humidity - 45-60%
How are you creating and maintaining these levels? He has a mister that kicks on every 2-4 hours. I change depending on current humidity.
What do you use to measure humidity? A humidity gauge inside his cage.
Plants - A Couple artificial and a ficus
Where is your cage located? In my bedroom that is fairly large Ana doesn't get a lot of traffic other than at night when I'm in there.
Is it near any fans- yes but I don't turn it on. air vents- yes
At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor? It's on top of a 4 1/2' dresser. I'm 5'6" and the cage goes about 1-1 1/2 feet above my head

Your Chameleon - make amelobe panther, not sure on age (per store thinks around 8-9 months).
How long has it been in your care? 3 weeks
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? Right now more than I should because I have to give him antibiotics 2x day and a critical care supplement.
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? I keep but loaded crickets in his cage and offer super worms 1-2 times a day.
How are you gut-loading your feeders? I use fluckers high calcium cricket diet, fluckers orange cubes, and fluckers cricket quencher and usually some type of fruit and vegetable .
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule? Once a week I dust his worms with repti calcium.
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? A monsoon solo moster
How often and how long to you mist? Every 2-4 hours for 20 seconds
Do you see your chameleon drinking? No
Fecal Description - The white part is slightly orange/yellow so I don't think he's hydrated enough. Fecals are also slightly slimy.
Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites. No he has not, the vet wants to buy he is not eating much so not having any BM
History - ?? The pet store said they only got him the day prior so I don't have any.
Current Problem - He is very thin, hips showing, lack of appetite, vomiting undigested food (not every time he eats, just random and it's not usually right after, sometimes several hours later), coughing (he's currently on Septra 2x daily for URI, still climbing pretty well and not quite as active as my other panther but for how sick he is he does pretty well. Also very full color. Most of the time grey or white ish.

 

[Jeag]

Here are a few more pictures of him and his cage.

 

[Syreptyon]

Hard to say for sure what is going on, but here are some categories in that list which need to be improved: lighting, plants, feeding, supplements, and watering.

Lighting: Get ride of the night bulb for sure. This is very disruptive to a chameleon's sleep and, unless it gets down to 50 F, it is unnecessary. As your temps indicate, you definitely do not need a night bulb and it will only exacerbate any problems he may be having.

Plants: He needs a lot more foliage in there for cover and security. Perhaps even more important than that, be sure to add many more horizontal branches/vines/walkways for him to use. Currently it looks like he only has that one singular vine to use and that vastly limits the amount of his home he can utilize. Think of it like this: it's like he has only a single path to hangout on, when you need to construct a system of walkways so he can really get around comfortably.

Feeding: Here, I just want to point out that those commercial Flukers products you're using are not really any good. It's awesome that you use some fruits/veggies in addition, but it is honestly better to primarily use fresh produce (like collard greens, turnip greens, escarole, dandelion greens, papaya, carrots, sweet potato).

Supplements: You need to be dusting every feeders (except BSFLs if you ever use those) with a phosphorous-free calcium powder without D3 at every feeding. In addition, you need to dust with a phosphorous-free powder with D3 twice a month and with a multivitamin once a month as well. Your current regimen is much too infrequent.

Watering: Part of the reason he is dehydrated is probably because you are not misting for nearly long enough. It can take up to several minutes to trigger a chameleon's drinking instinct. These misting sessions should be significantly longer (2+ minutes, imo)

Sorry I can't offer more specific help for the acute problems he is experiencing! It sounds like you're doing a lot to help him already and I hope he gets well.

 

[kinyonga]

The basking light should not be a colored light...so I would use a regular white household incandescent bulb of a wattage that produces the right basking temperature in the basking.

You said... "He is very thin, hips showing, lack of appetite, vomiting undigested food (not every time he eats, just random and it's not usually right after, sometimes several hours later)"....did they have substrate in the cage where you bought him? Fake vines that had a coating on them to make them look like real ones?

I agree with what was said I. The above post concerning misting and I would add a dripper that drips long enough to stimulate him to drink. Chameleons are slow to figure it out most if the time. The dripper can be a solo cup or a deli cup with a tiny hole punched in the bottom of it so it drips at the rate of one or two drips per second. Hydration is expecially important when you have a chance on on medication....meds are usually hard in the kidneys.

You said..." coughing (he's currently on Septra 2x daily for URI, still climbing pretty well and not quite as active as my other panther but for how sick he is he does pretty well. Also very fullcolor. Most of the time grey or white ish"...first a word of warning...whatever you have to do as daily care...do it to your original panther first and then the sick one. Wash your hands well after working with the sick one and any tools, feeding cups, etc you use with the sick one don't use for the other one and sterilize things in between. The sick one I would also keep in a different room for now.

 

[GwynT]

I would also add that by having such little ventilation, he's prone to getting infections.

 

[kinyonga]

If you want to increase the ventilation move the heat light more to one side to create a chimney effect.

 

[Jeag]

The basking light should not be a colored light...so I would use a regular white household incandescent bulb of a wattage that produces the right basking temperature in the basking.

You said... "He is very thin, hips showing, lack of appetite, vomiting undigested food (not every time he eats, just random and it's not usually right after, sometimes several hours later)"....did they have substrate in the cage where you bought him? Fake vines that had a coating on them to make them look like real ones?

I agree with what was said I. The above post concerning misting and I would add a dripper that drips long enough to stimulate him to drink. Chameleons are slow to figure it out most if the time. The dripper can be a solo cup or a deli cup with a tiny hole punched in the bottom of it so it drips at the rate of one or two drips per second. Hydration is expecially important when you have a chance on on medication....meds are usually hard in the kidneys.

You said..." coughing (he's currently on Septra 2x daily for URI, still climbing pretty well and not quite as active as my other panther but for how sick he is he does pretty well. Also very fullcolor. Most of the time grey or white ish"...first a word of warning...whatever you have to do as daily care...do it to your original panther first and then the sick one. Wash your hands well after working with the sick one and any tools, feeding cups, etc you use with the sick one don't use for the other one and sterilize things in between. The sick one I would also keep in a different room for now.

Thank you for the reply. I will get the heat lamp thing switched tonight. And yes they had the coconut husk substrate and the vines you are talking about. I also have both in his current cage I'm assuming it's bad!

I did switch his mister to 2 minutes and also did the cup on top the cage and he immediately started drinking. Tonight he has taken a turn for the worst. He is very lethargic, and gasping for air really bad tonight shop in afraid he isn't going to make it

 

[Jeag]

I would also add that by having such little ventilation, he's prone to getting infections.

My other chameleon has a full mesh cage and I was going to get the same but the pet store owner assured me this one was best because I live in the desert and it's really hard to keep humidity up here. He said it's the perfect combo to keep enough moisture in but still ventilate

 

[kinyonga]

I'm worried he might be impacted or partially impacted from ingesting the substrate... or the "bark" off those vines because panthers are branch chewers.
Stool description could also be from parasites.

IMHO you need to run the mister longer than two minutes too....it would be good for your other chameleon too.

IMHO he isn't going to make it...head up? ....gasping for air is organ failure or heart issues, etc and usually the end. He may appear to rally and then will likely pass. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Jeag]

I'm worried he might be impacted or partially impacted from ingesting the substrate... or the "bark" off those vines because panthers are branch chewers.
Stool description could also be from parasites.

IMHO you need to run the mister longer than two minutes too....it would be good for your other chameleon too.

IMHO he isn't going to make it...head up? ....gasping for air is organ failure or heart issues, etc and usually the end. He may appear to rally and then will likely pass. I hope I'm wrong.

That's exactly I was worried was the branch situation. I did notice pieces of the branch missing, not very big though. Unfortunately my mister only goes to 120 second so I think I'll do that and a dripper every day. I don't think he will make it either but there has been days he acts horrible but then turns around. I really hope so but I'm trying to not get my hopes up. I'm really attached to him already and it's completely heartbreaking to watch him suffer. And he was holding his head up but now he's peacefully sleeping with no coughing or wheezing and he's holding on the top branch and his tail is curled up and he has some color. Fingers crossed

 

[kinyonga]

Is his head pointed up even if it's resting in a branch...if you know what I mean?

 

[Jeag]

Is his head pointed up even if it's resting in a branch...if you know what I mean?

It's 7:00am my time and he is still coughing but he slept well last night and this morning he is climbing around his branches. When I woke up he did have his head up. If he were to have a blockage is there anything a vet could do?

 

[Jeag]

Hard to say for sure what is going on, but here are some categories in that list which need to be improved: lighting, plants, feeding, supplements, and watering.

Lighting: Get ride of the night bulb for sure. This is very disruptive to a chameleon's sleep and, unless it gets down to 50 F, it is unnecessary. As your temps indicate, you definitely do not need a night bulb and it will only exacerbate any problems he may be having.

Plants: He needs a lot more foliage in there for cover and security. Perhaps even more important than that, be sure to add many more horizontal branches/vines/walkways for him to use. Currently it looks like he only has that one singular vine to use and that vastly limits the amount of his home he can utilize. Think of it like this: it's like he has only a single path to hangout on, when you need to construct a system of walkways so he can really get around comfortably.

Feeding: Here, I just want to point out that those commercial Flukers products you're using are not really any good. It's awesome that you use some fruits/veggies in addition, but it is honestly better to primarily use fresh produce (like collard greens, turnip greens, escarole, dandelion greens, papaya, carrots, sweet potato).

Supplements: You need to be dusting every feeders (except BSFLs if you ever use those) with a phosphorous-free calcium powder without D3 at every feeding. In addition, you need to dust with a phosphorous-free powder with D3 twice a month and with a multivitamin once a month as well. Your current regimen is much too infrequent.

Watering: Part of the reason he is dehydrated is probably because you are not misting for nearly long enough. It can take up to several minutes to trigger a chameleon's drinking instinct. These misting sessions should be significantly longer (2+ minutes, imo)

Sorry I can't offer more specific help for the acute problems he is experiencing! It sounds like you're doing a lot to help him already and I hope he gets well.

Do you have a specific brand of calcium without phosphorus Ana D3 that you like? I'm having a hard time finding any local

 

[Syreptyon]

Without D3 (for ~daily use): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-3&keywords=rep-cal

With D3 (twice a month): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-1&keywords=rep-cal

Multivitamin (twice a month): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-2&keywords=rep-cal

 

[Graves923]

Without D3 (for ~daily use): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-3&keywords=rep-cal

With D3 (twice a month): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-1&keywords=rep-cal

Multivitamin (twice a month): https://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-SRP0...e=UTF8&qid=1518723708&sr=8-2&keywords=rep-cal

I can back these products. I use these with the schedule Syreptyon posted and have had no issues.

Good luck. Kinyonga and Syreptyon will help you get everything squared away.

 

[kinyonga]

I've used those same three supplements Syreptyon linked to for years now too.

As for an impaction...I don't know what can be done because it depends on the damage partly. If he's not pooping though and eats some then you can try some baby food pear or thin slices of pear to see if it will get things moving.

Keep us posted with the progress please!
Good luck too!

 

[Jeag]

Ok so update on my little guy. I ended up taking him back to the vet on Tuesday because he was really struggling to breathe and not eating or drinking, I thought for sure it was the end. The vet took a look at him and said his URI has now turned to pneumonia but he still had quite a bit of strength and his heart still sounds great so she switched him to Baytril and told me to give it a few days. She also swabbed all the mucus out of the back of his throat so he could breathe. Within 24 hours he is improving significantly. I still can't get him to eat though but he is awake more, crawling around his cage, and drinking just fine. I did change his cage to a full mesh cage as well and got rid of the substrate at the bottom of his cage and also added another basking bulb for him because the vet said he needs warmer temperatures to speed his metabolism so that he can overcome this pneumonia. I also added a warm mist humidifier in the room to help loosen the mucus and he now has a lil dripper at the top of his cage which I have actually caught him throwing his tongue at to drink the last 24 hours. Only problem I'm having now is eating! The vet is having me give him small amounts of pedialight and critical care powder mixed in warm water but he is being a hard the last couple days and doesn't want to be doctored anymore. I will syringe it just inside his lips and before he would lap it up with his tongue and now he is being resistant and after a couple tastes he will just wipe it off on a branch or something. Any suggestions to get him to eat? He is losing weight rapidly but still very strong and improving. I'm just worried about him being malnourished.

 

[kinyonga]

You can try this...
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

If he's drinking from a dripper...once his mouth starts opening and shutting to drink stick a cricket head first between his teeth when he goes to close the mouth as he drinks. If he eats that way please let me know...if he spits it out post that to.

IMHO the vet is right about adding a bit more heat. Chameleons don't develop fevers from what I understand so bumping up the temperature slightly is sort of the same thing.

 

[Jeag]

You can try this...
http://www.adcham.com/html/husbandry/bug-juice.html

If he's drinking from a dripper...once his mouth starts opening and shutting to drink stick a cricket head first between his teeth when he goes to close the mouth as he drinks. If he eats that way please let me know...if he spits it out post that to.

IMHO the vet is right about adding a bit more heat. Chameleons don't develop fevers from what I understand so bumping up the temperature slightly is sort of the same thing.

Here a couple pictures of him from this morning. Yesterday and the day before he wasn’t doing much mouth breathing but today he is pretty bad for some reason. I did try the big juice this morning and got him to eat a little. He’s being such a terd though! He will let me put only a little in his mouth and then he will just fight me and spit it out when he’s done but I know there is no way he’s full. He will only eat 2-3 cc’s at a time. I think he is just getting tired of being doctored. I haven’t caught him trying to drink from the dripper yet but I will definitely be trying that as soon as I do. He is well hydrated though and still had a lot of climbing strength. He is also awake more. When he was very ill he would just lay flat on his branch and sleep all day aside from when he was coughing. I think the reason he isn’t wanting to eat is a combination of the antibiotic and the last 3 times he tried to eat he chocked on his food and threw it up but that was when he was much more ill. I think he’s afraid he will do the same. These reptiles aren’t stupid!

 

[Jeag]

I finally got him to eat this evening!!!!! 3 super worms with calcium, spaced them all about an hour apart in hopes to not upset his stomach. I'm hoping that he keeps them down. So far so good! He usually vomits in the middle of the night though and it's currently 10:44pm here. Keep fingers crossed. P.s. Is there any way to post videos? I would love to share how very ill he has been and the breathing, coughing issues for others that may be having similar issues.