Help Please, female veiled sick...

[Fishead]

Hello,
We have an approx 10-11 month old female veiled named Bungee.
Our first chameleon, quickly become part of family. I studied hard and lurked forums before we got her at xmas to get proper set-up. Still, surprised we were to have her lay 30 eggs just a month or so after we got her. Caught me a bit unprepared for the event but I got her set up and she laid (infertile) clutch and life returned to normal.
I try and give her all recommended diet/calcium, has always had great appetite.

Now lately (past couple weeks, she has looked to me like she's getting ready to lay eggs again...getting fat...moving round kinda awkward...and as before, her appetite had tapered off some. I just figured we were on track and got nesting box in place early this time.

But this past week her appetite has shut off, she has become increasingly weak, and today she has really taken a dip in energy. She is sticking her tongue out a bit (like when they are preparing to fire). I've been giving her water with an eye dropper to try and keep her hydrated. Earlier, she just dropped her tongue out and it hung straight down a few seconds before she slowly retracted it. Normally she is standoffish and doesn't like to be handled much, but she is just all sad and pathetic and doesn't mind kicking on me and seems comforted by feeling warmth of hands. Oh, she also is showing Yellow markings today...a first I've seen, save for a small bit by her mouth when she's content. Usually green with some aqua spots. Last couple days showing golden/orange bands...today more yellow. This afternoon she came down and sat at bottom of cage...fatigued. I took her outside for some sunlight and those markings turned bright mustard yellow. Not at all our usual Bungee
I am real worried we might lose her...clearly not getting nutrition.

Only thing I can think of is she is sick...or her tongue got injured. I am not real sure she is gravid. She doesn't look 'lumpy' yet at all, like she did 1st time, and hasn't been up and down the cage.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Possible ways of getting any liquid nutrition down her without making things worse etc...

THANK YOU!!!

 

[Elizadolots]

Hi, I'm so sorry you are having problems.

I think you need to complete this form: https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/ Just copy the questions, paste them into a reply and add your information. Be specific, be detailed. Do not for a nanosecond be concerned about grossing us out. "Fecal description" means a detailed description of what the poop looks like...feel free to substitute a picture.

My first thought is your temps might be a bit high for a female so she is cycling through the reproductive thing a bit too fast. Dark with peachy colored bands seems like gravid to me. However, maybe she's just "receptive" and as you are not (I'm sorry to tell you) what she's looking for, she's annoyed with you....

 

[Fishead]

Thanks for reply, and pointing me to hot to ask page.

Chameleon Info:
Veiled - 10-11 months old, we have had her 4.5 months
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? 2-4 times a month..not much as she is not a real fan of it.
Feeding - Crickets, meal-worms, lettuce/greens (sprayed with water...this is how she gets most of her water intake) What amount? 3-4 med/lg crickets a day, 6-10 meal worms mixed in every couple days. What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading? fed shreded greens, broccoli, carrots, meal, and green gutload goop they use at pet-store..they usually give me a blob in a baggy with crickets.
Supplements - Tetra Reptocal regular light dusting. Was getting a little white fluff around nostrils early on, so I backed off a little on amount.
Watering - This has been a challenge from start. Up until she laid 1st clutch she drank from a bowl and I misted cage also. After she just doesn't 'get' anything I've tried...including spraying, drip, ice cubes. She really chows leafy greens I tear into small bits and place on leaf tops in her cage, so I mist them heavily and she gobbles them up. I continue to run a drip-cup top to bottom runs across a couple leaves and collects in a bowl at bottom. She just watches it, lol. The ice cubes worked better she would zap a drop or two at least. Recently she's allowed the clear glass eye dropper in her face and once a drop or tow on her mouth she takes several droppers full.
Fecal Description - Hasn't been pooping nearly a week. Last observed looked normal, dark majority followed by orange and white finish
History -


Cage Info:

Cage Type - 18x18x36 screen
Lighting - 15w 5.0 UVB - 12 hrs a day on timer?
Temperature - 78 - 80 (1) 60w heat element above. Lowest overnight temp> I don't know. How do you measure these temps?> digital thermometer
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? -not sure, I mist 2-3 times a day. What do you use to measure humidity? - I haven't really
Plants - Fake plants, real wood limbs. Just got real plants (after much reading on what's safe) but haven't replanted and made the switch yet.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? Cage floor level is 30" above floor level (desk height)
Location - So California?


Current Problem -
Her tongue is poking just out of her mouth. I think maybe it is swollen or bothering her?
As of this evening/tonight she is having trouble breathing, laboring to do so if excited/handled
She is not eating, and only able to get a little but of water in her via eye dropper.
As of couple of days ago she was still snatching meal worms from a dish when coaxed...but when she nabbed 2-4 at once she nom-nom spit them out. Normally she would chow and eat more. today not interested.
Her tail is not really doing it's job...overall weak and listless...pretty much just looks up at me like "I don't feel so good"
Really alarmed and bummed me out earlier to see her drop her tongue out like that...that was clearly not right at all...
I wish I knew what I could do to help her....

Oh, I did add a night 'blue' bulb above the cage a week or so prior to this starting. It raised the ambient warmth a bit, but still to upper reaches...IMO allowed her more range and options to sleep rather than all way up in corner under 60w. I don't know but maybe a contributing factor? Still new to this....

 

[Flapenn]

Do you mean you added a blue bulb that you leave on all night long to warmth? If this is the case its not recommended to have any light in the cage at night, they need it to be dark in order to sleep.

 

[Fishead]

Yes, it is a 75w "moonlight" eco-terra bulb that gives off very little light

 

[Flapenn]

To give the Veiled Chameleon a natural day/night cycle, lights should be left on for 10-12 hours during the day and turned off at night. Lighting should never be left on overnight – constant light will cause the animal severe stress.

that is quoted from this site-- http://www.petsuppliesplus.com/animalcare/Reptiles/veiledchameleon.htm

i also live in socal and its barely 61º outside right now and the room my cham is in is at around 73º are you sure you need to be warming your tank up at night? if you are sure you need to raise the temps maybe try something like this so that it stays dark

http://www.petco.com/product/5003/Zoo-Med-Repticare-Ceramic-Infrared-Heat-Emitters.aspx

 

[Flapenn]

also what temp is her basking area during the day?

 

[Fishead]

Here are some photo's if any help...

Normal Bungee:

Earlier today indoors/outdoors:

Tonight...poor Bungee

As stated, she has never displayed YELLOW in her normal color patterns, much less the bright mustard yellow this afternoon. I've seen it in pix, mostly males I think. She's mostly a green kinda gal...

 

[Fishead]

I've unplugged the 'moonlight' lamp now. It was chilly a week or so ago, and why I added it. Warmer past few days...clear I need to pay closer attention to fluctuations. The 60w I mentioned is an Emitter not a bulb, and placed atop the enclosure where she usually tucks up tight under to bask and sleep at night...at least she did through remainder of winter.
If I can get her through this...I need to step up my monitoring abilities.

Any recommendations for a local OC vet that knows Chameleons?

Thank you all for replies, stranger noob to this forum I am, much appreciated

><(((*<

 

[camimom]

Thanks for reply, and pointing me to hot to ask page.

Chameleon Info:
Veiled - 10-11 months old, we have had her 4.5 months
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon? 2-4 times a month..not much as she is not a real fan of it.
Feeding - Crickets, meal-worms, lettuce/greens (sprayed with water...this is how she gets most of her water intake) What amount? 3-4 med/lg crickets a day, 6-10 meal worms mixed in every couple days. What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading? fed shreded greens, broccoli, carrots, meal, and green gutload goop they use at pet-store..they usually give me a blob in a baggy with crickets. You need to improve your gutloading. Please find blogs by sandrachameleon on what foods you can feed.
Supplements - Tetra Reptocal regular light dusting. Was getting a little white fluff around nostrils early on, so I backed off a little on amount.she should be getting a plain calcium without d3 every feeding, a calcium with d3 twice a month, and a multivitamin twice a month.
Watering - This has been a challenge from start. Up until she laid 1st clutch she drank from a bowl and I misted cage also. After she just doesn't 'get' anything I've tried...including spraying, drip, ice cubes. She really chows leafy greens I tear into small bits and place on leaf tops in her cage, so I mist them heavily and she gobbles them up. I continue to run a drip-cup top to bottom runs across a couple leaves and collects in a bowl at bottom. She just watches it, lol. The ice cubes worked better she would zap a drop or two at least. Recently she's allowed the clear glass eye dropper in her face and once a drop or tow on her mouth she takes several droppers full. this is definitely not sufficient. I have own my veileds for over a year, and I rarely see them drink. She knows how to do it, but she may not with you standing watching her. She needs to be heavily misted at least 5 times a day. She is not getting enough water from the veggies and you spraying them.
Fecal Description - Hasn't been pooping nearly a week. Last observed looked normal, dark majority followed by orange and white finish This is not good. the orange part, should be completely white. orange means she is dehydrated. Please up her mistings, soak her cage and let it dry out, then do it again. heavy mistings, so that the leaves are dripping.
History -


Cage Info:

Cage Type - 18x18x36 screen
Lighting - 15w 5.0 UVB - 12 hrs a day on timer? when was this bulb last replaced?
Temperature - 78 - 80 (1) 60w heat element above. Lowest overnight temp> I don't know. How do you measure these temps?> digital thermometer
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? -not sure, I mist 2-3 times a day. What do you use to measure humidity? - I haven't really
Plants - Fake plants, real wood limbs. Just got real plants (after much reading on what's safe) but haven't replanted and made the switch yet.
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? Cage floor level is 30" above floor level (desk height)
Location - So California?


Current Problem -
Her tongue is poking just out of her mouth. I think maybe it is swollen or bothering her?
As of this evening/tonight she is having trouble breathing, laboring to do so if excited/handled The mouth open and wheezing probably means she has a respiratory infection. In which case, you need a vet for antibiotics.
She is not eating, and only able to get a little but of water in her via eye dropper.
As of couple of days ago she was still snatching meal worms from a dish when coaxed...but when she nabbed 2-4 at once she nom-nom spit them out. Normally she would chow and eat more. today not interested.
Her tail is not really doing it's job...overall weak and listless...pretty much just looks up at me like "I don't feel so good"
Really alarmed and bummed me out earlier to see her drop her tongue out like that...that was clearly not right at all...
I wish I knew what I could do to help her....

Oh, I did add a night 'blue' bulb above the cage a week or so prior to this starting. It raised the ambient warmth a bit, but still to upper reaches...IMO allowed her more range and options to sleep rather than all way up in corner under 60w. I don't know but maybe a contributing factor? Still new to this....

I saw you already removed the night bulb, which is good.
they can handle temps down into the 50's at night and as long as they have a good basking spot its ok.
I have given my suggestions in red. at this point, you need a vet.
I highly suspect a respiratory infection. NTM she is dehydrated.
I also think she looks a little plump, so she could have eggs. I would suggest having xrays done to check on that, as well as making sure she has 24/7 access to her laying bin.

Good luck

 

[Elizadolots]

Where are you measuring the temperature? 78-80 would be okay for a basking temperature for a female (81-82 might be better) but the cage floor should be in the mid to low 70s. The fact that she seems to be producing eggs at a pretty fast rate suggests it is a bit warm in the cage over all. Also, while what you list for food doesn't sound excessive, it just seems like she might be over eating a bit...typically we don't recommend a lot of meal worms because the hard outer shell can be difficult to digest.

I agree you need to work on hydration. You might try misting heavily (make the cage drip like it's been raining) after you establish the dripper...that way the dripper will just seem like residual rain.

I note that you say you have a catch bowl for the dripper. This suggests that you don't have a good drainage system. Do you have some sort of substrate on the floor?

My suggestion is to remove any substrate and establish a drain system so you can really soak the cage without worrying about where the water goes. One simple way to do this is to get a rubber drawer unit. Cut a substantial hole in the top of the unit. Put the cage on top of the unit and drill multiple holes in the bottom of the cage that are all "above" the hole in the unit. Water will drain into the rubber drawer which can be removed and emptied into the toilet (or you could use it to water flowers) as needed.

If you choose to stick with the catch bowl, I strongly recommend you cover it with nylon mesh or some such material just in case your chameleon falls into it. You don't want her to drown.

 

[Fishead]

Thank you (camimom) and others for all the info and advice!

Just got back from Vet with poor lil Bungee. They gave her an injection, and sent us home with an anti informatory (to reduce tongue swelling), and antibiotic oral suspensions to administer with small marked syringes.
Ugh, vet bill unwelcome right now but worth it if we can save her and get her happy again. We've become very attached already, she's family

She is feeling very poorly, I hope she pulls through.

Wish us luck...

Best, ><(((*<

 

[Flapenn]

Glad to hear she's gettin the attention she needs right now. Hope all goes well.

 

[camimom]

Good luck!

what medications did they send you home with?

 

[Fishead]

meloxicam, and baytril suspension. Vit AD injection 0.12 ml/kg...cha ching...*sigh.
I hope she pulls through...just got done soaking her.
Gotta run pick up my boy...hitting hardware store on way home to pull together better drip and misting set-up... Thanks All!!

 

[Fishead]

Bungee is still hanging in there. Still very weak.

Has anyone else observed this behavior/condition before? Swollen tongue, letting it hang out and dangle?

Seems she can retract it and close her mouth nearly all way, but it's clearly swollen, club-like, and at least protruding partially all the time. At moment she is resting in pete at bottom of plant with business end of her tongue completely out of her. It's very not right looking. Poor Bungee

Gave her 2nd doses of anti-inflammatory and antibiotic this am. Doing best to get/keep her hydrated..soaked her, dripping water on tongue constantly so doesn't dry out. I hope it will help reduce swelling...she can't eat without her tongue. It actually seems more swollen than yesterday, it looks sore, maybe puss filled half of it. I keep thinking a jumbo size cricket might have bit her...or otherwise injured it somehow and became infected? Idunno, hard to see and wish I could make it better for her.

Any ideas/suggestions about getting her some nutrition, liquid I can syringe force feed without hurting her? Clearly it's a worry about damaging her tongue structure...but from look of things, she's not able to eat if she wanted to. I'm thinking soon the risks will be far outweighed by likely demise, and she needs nourishment to fight and recover.
Any knowledge how long a chameleon can live without eating?

 

[Elizadolots]

You can make a puree of bugs with a bit of pedialyte or other such liquid, then administer it with a needless syringe.

 

[Olimpia]

I worry that perhaps her tongue needs amputation. Did the vets look at her mouth well? I had a female veiled injure her tongue and it needed to be removed, she just couldn't drink or eat with it because it was just injured, swollen, and useless. Hopefully the antiinflamatories do something but it may come to that, unfortunately.

I hope she does better though. She is a really beautiful little female, I hope the best for you and her.

 

[Fishead]

Where are you measuring the temperature? 78-80 would be okay for a basking temperature for a female (81-82 might be better) but the cage floor should be in the mid to low 70s. The fact that she seems to be producing eggs at a pretty fast rate suggests it is a bit warm in the cage over all. Also, while what you list for food doesn't sound excessive, it just seems like she might be over eating a bit...typically we don't recommend a lot of meal worms because the hard outer shell can be difficult to digest.

I agree you need to work on hydration. You might try misting heavily (make the cage drip like it's been raining) after you establish the dripper...that way the dripper will just seem like residual rain.

I note that you say you have a catch bowl for the dripper. This suggests that you don't have a good drainage system. Do you have some sort of substrate on the floor?

My suggestion is to remove any substrate and establish a drain system so you can really soak the cage without worrying about where the water goes. One simple way to do this is to get a rubber drawer unit. Cut a substantial hole in the top of the unit. Put the cage on top of the unit and drill multiple holes in the bottom of the cage that are all "above" the hole in the unit. Water will drain into the rubber drawer which can be removed and emptied into the toilet (or you could use it to water flowers) as needed.

If you choose to stick with the catch bowl, I strongly recommend you cover it with nylon mesh or some such material just in case your chameleon falls into it. You don't want her to drown.

Thank you for the sage advice.
To answer a couple of your Q's:
No I have no substrate floor, it's plain white plastic (styrene I suspect). I add a couple paper towels. Clearly I need to rethink this as I need keep an overall wetter enclosure than I have been.
To clarify, the catch bowl I've been using is tiny/shallow...like you'd get a small side of coleslaw in. Simple plastic cup with pinhole that I circulate nearly dozen times a day...has been doable working from home. My hope has been she'd find her way to it and drink from it or on the way down drips cascade over a couple leaves (a benefit of fake plants, you can pull this off. Clearly it hasn't worked out just as all other things I've tried.
Went to hardware yesterday and gathered other stuff to make a very good drip sys. That's the easy one. I also gathered parts to make a misting system with a small inexpensive pressure sprayer. Was rather happy with what I'd come up with and was looking forward to being able to post for others to reference as a decent solution for about $20 total But upon quick assembling and testing, it leaks and (fogger) nozzles I bought are not all I had hoped at this lower pressure level. And in changing out the stock nozzle on sprayer with adapter/fittings to a hose, it nullifies the trigger mechanism. Not as quick and easy as seemed, but I am a prototype developer thankfully and I can make this work nicely with a little added work.

I've been letting all the live plants we got cycle for 30 days after replanting as a precaution because she is an extreme avid leaf eater.

I hope our Bungee will live to see and enjoy these improvements. At this point with Vet bills I've already shelled out double her (potential) replacement cost. Admittedly, getting into this, even with all the prior research I DID DO...I was not really prepared or fully understood the added needs and quite significant considerations associated with having a female. Point being, if I had it to do again, we would have likely gotten a male. But we love her just the same and I'm hoping she pulls through. If she doesn't make it, it may be some time before we can afford to make another go at Chameleon care...but we will certainly be better prepared and able to do it as right as possible. Clearly a significant commitment caring for these amazing critters, and not something you can do even remotely half arsed.

 

[Fishead]

I worry that perhaps her tongue needs amputation. Did the vets look at her mouth well? I had a female veiled injure her tongue and it needed to be removed, she just couldn't drink or eat with it because it was just injured, swollen, and useless. Hopefully the antiinflamatories do something but it may come to that, unfortunately.

I hope she does better though. She is a really beautiful little female, I hope the best for you and her.

Amputate her tongue? OMG
How did yours get along and live without a tongue?