Help! First time with pregnant female veiled!

[DJBMURDER]

thanks everyone for all the help! I got her a 5 gallon bucket today, filled it with play sand, got it damp just enough to build a tunnel and am letting her be, i dropped the temp 5-10 degrees and put a sheet over the cage where the bucket is...She is so fat, you can see the eggs..its just a matter of time...shes really cranky but still active, colors are slightly changing, but her appetite is crazy?!?! do they get a huge appetite like i assume before they lay eggs? I know she's prego for sure i just hope she lays the eggs before I leave for atlanta...another question...perlite or vericulite? I got perlite, the vermiculite was horticultural vermiculite and didn't look like any of the stuff they used in the videos...the perlite was dead on...so i am gonna put that in a tupperware bin and poke holes in it, and when she lays eggs place them in there, put the bin in a bigger bin floating on water and put the lid on top and place it in a closet with a temp control of low to mid 70s? is this all right?

 

[DJBMURDER]

So she still hasn't laid eggs yet, still has an appetite, her colors are increasingly getting to that stage...and shes getting a little more frantic, but her poor belly drags everywhere she goes! How on Earth hasn't she laid eggs yet...she's healthy as an ox...should i be worried or am i not giving her enough time? I dropped the temp in her cage, sand box (5 gallon bucket with sand just wet enough to build a tunnel) is in place, and put a sheet over the side of her cage where she would lay them....any other suggestions? Kind of worried... :/

 

[pssh]

Like someone else said, they usually take about 30 days to lay (give or take a few days) If you've only had her for a week she will could very well take 20+ days to lay if she only just became gravid when you got her. If she was kept with a male, she could have become gravid an any point before you got her, so she could lay sooner than 20 days. It really just depends, and you wont know unless the previous owner can tell you exactly when she mated/became gravid.

 

[DJBMURDER]

man im leaving for atlanta on a mission trip in 7 days! she will literally lay her eggs any day now, ill be so ticked off if she lays them like a day or two after i leave! Then my mom will have to deal with digging up the eggs and putting them in my homemade incubators....i dont understand though, she should be having them anytime soon but she is still eating like a horse...is it true that you should feed them crickets or whatever feeders dusted with calcium w/o d3 as much as they want for 5 mins when they are pregnant or am i overfeeding her? i read somewhere the healthier she is as far as eating supplements and hydration, the better yield of eggs...i need some more expert advice guys...please help

 

[jannb]

I don't ever overfeed my girls. If they get too large it's harder for them to lay the eggs. I still feed 3 days a week 6 to 8 feeders depending on the size. I do step up the amount of liquid calcium that I give them to a drop or two three times a week instead of once a week.

At the first sign of a problem you should take her to a good chameleon vet. Many of the females die from egg problems and live a shorter life than the males. If you get her to the vet in time a vet can give oxytocin to induce egg laying before she becomes egg bound. Once she's pasted the point of being able to lay the oxytocin will not work. Most of the time several injections of oxytocin over several days might be needed. If she still doesn’t lay the eggs surgery is the only other alternative. Surgery is very risky but at this point it’s the only choice. If your female is healthy and your husbandry is right she shouldn't become egg-bound unless she has a reproductive system deformity, deformed eggs, etc.



Egg Laying and the Laying Bin
Posted 09-06-2010 at 03:17 PM by jannb
Updated 05-03-2012 at 12:09 PM by jannb
I free range my chameleons so I really have to pay close attention to when it’s time to lay eggs. I think one of the most important things is to have a gram scale and weigh her once a week. If she's gaining and you are still feeding the same amount of food then I figure she must have eggs. You can buy a gram scale cheap on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Diet-Foo...item3f001f087f or you can buy one at Wal Mart with the small kitchen appliances. They have a bowl on top and they are really for weighing food but they work great for chams. I put a wash cloth over the bowl to give them something to grip on to, zero out the scale and then put the cham on. You can weigh from the smallest baby right up to largest Melleri. Camille, my female veiled never seems to show, what people call gravid colors, so by keeping a written record of her weight every week it helps me to know when she’s got a clutch.

Camille was 14 months old before she laid her first clutch but I always kept her cooler, 80 to 83 for basking and I cut way back on her food at 5 and ½ months old. Over Camille’s free range I have the double fluorescent hood that houses a tube/linear Repti-sun 5.0 and a regular white fluorescent tube light. In my house this keeps the temperature in the low 80's. I found out about the lower temps and smaller feedings in Lynda Horgan’s blog http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleo...le-veiled.html Cutting back on the food helps to stop her from forming a clutch or at least if she has a clutch is should be a small one. A lower temperature helps to slow the metabolism to hopefully make these little starving girls not quite so hungry. A temperature gun is also very important so that you can point the laser right on their body to make sure they are not getting too hot. You can also get a temp. gun on eBay for a really good price. http://cgi.ebay.com/CRAFTSMAN-NON-CO...76996846397009

Sometimes keeping them cooler and cutting back on their food will not prevent them from laying eggs. That’s why is so important to keep up with their weight. Since I free ranges the way I can tell when it's time to put Camille in her laying bin trash can, is when she won’t stay in her trees and she's roaming around all over the place looking for a place to lay those eggs. Sometimes she will stop eating a few days before she lays but not every time.

I have to use a large trash can (the kind you wheel out to the side of the road for the trash man). The first time Camille laid eggs she laid them in her plant and she has two regular laying bins available to her. After that was when I started using the trash can. You can see pictures of the trash can in this link: Camille's eggs (43 of them) are they fertile?
Lynda (kinyonga) recommends putting a smaller container (12" x 12"deep x 8"wide) of washed playsand in the cage for the female to dig in so that you don't miss the often subtle indications that she is ready to lay eggs. Once she starts digging in this container, then you can move her to the larger one. Panthers will often lay in a container this size.

For a regular laying bin I would not use anything smaller than a 12X12X12 and a 14X14X14 or a 16X16X16 would be even better.

You need to have 12 inches of substrate in the bottom of the can. I use washed play sand. It’s very important to have the sand moist so that it will hold a tunnel and not cave in on your female. I take a big spoon and dig a tunnel all the way to the bottom to make sure it’s going to hold the tunnel. If it’s too dry or too moist they will refuse to use it. Some females will dig several test holes before they finally get one they like. I usually leave my test hole and sometimes Camille will use it.

Once you have determined it’s time for them to lay eggs you must put them in the laying bin and give them complete privacy. If they see you looking they can abandon the hole and become egg bound. It will take hours for them to dig the hole and get it just the way they want it. Camille once spent all night in the laying bin. She did stop digging and went to sleep in the hole and early the next morning she was digging again. I was afraid to move her and just left her in the hole over night. The tunnel is usually slanted toward the side of the can and goes all the way to the bottom. I would not put more than 12 inches of sand in the bottom because they will dig to the bottom and it’s too hard on them to have to do so much digging.

While digging the hole they will be head first in the hole. Once they get the hole to their liking they will turn around and lay the eggs. Usually this doesn’t take nearly as long as digging the hole. Again, very important, DO NOT let your female see you looking. She needs complete privacy to lay these eggs. Once she’s finished laying the eggs she will start covering up the hole and then pat the sand down and return to the branch. Camille is always exhausted and once I see her covering the hole I get her out of the laying bin and return her to her tree. She is very weak and needs plenty of water and food. First I give her a really long misting to get all the sand off her and she takes several long drinks. Then I give her several feeders (silkworms are excellent at this time) heavily dusted in calcium with no D3. I would highly recommend buying some liquid calcium and keep it on hand for your female. Once I notice that Camille has eggs I give her a drop of liquid calcium once a week until she lays the eggs. After she lays the eggs I give her a drop or two every day for 3 to 4 days. If you don’t have liquid calcium, then heavily dust her feeders with plain calcium for 3 to 4 days after she’s laid eggs. I feed her very well the first fews days after laying and then after 3 or 4 days I put Camille back on her regular feeding and supplement schedule.

When your female comes out of the laying bin she should look very thin. If she’s still fat then you have a problem because she has not laid the eggs. I always weigh Camille after she's out of the laying bin and she's always 20 to 22 grams lighter. If your female didn't lay the eggs you can try leaving her in the laying bin for longer but I would take her to a good chameleon vet at the first sign of a problem. Many of the females die from egg problems and live a shorter life than the males. If you get her to the vet in time a vet can give oxytocin to induce egg laying before she becomes egg bound. Several injections of oxytocin over several days might be needed. If she still doesn’t lay the eggs surgery is the only other alternative. Surgery is very risky but at this point it’s the only choice. If your female is healthy and your husbandry is right she shouldn't become egg-bound unless she has a reproductive system deformity, deformed eggs, etc.

I incubate the eggs the same way that Lynda (kinyonga) does. Put them in a plastic Tupperware shoe box with about 3 inches of moist vermiculite and keep them in a closet where the temps with be around 76 degrees. I punch two tiny holes in the lid. To test for moisture, take a fist full of the vermiculite and squeeze it, if no more than a drop or two of water comes out then the moisture level should be okay. Do not turn the eggs as you move them from where they were laid to the container. Lay them in rows about an inch apart in all directions in shallow dents made with your thumb in the vermiculite. Put the lid on and place them in a dark place where the temperature is between 72-78 F. Moisture will form on the sides of the container and underside of the lid. It takes about 8 to 9 months for the eggs to hatch. It they are not fertile they will mold over in a couple of weeks.

 

[DJBMURDER]

thanks for all your help. I pray to God I am just an anxious daddy waiting for my girl to lay her eggs..ill DEF cut back on how much i feed her but like you said i have upped the intake of calcium w/o d3....and since she hasnt lost her appetite i imagine maybe i need to give her another week or so....have cham mommies ever laid eggs and still had an appetite? She has the nervous pacing around the cage, the coloration at times, and the belly! The only real thing that hasn't left her is the appetite...I've seen her in her sand bin a couple times diggin around but then she just leaves and goes frantically to another part of the cage....

 

[jannb]

thanks for all your help. I pray to God I am just an anxious daddy waiting for my girl to lay her eggs..ill DEF cut back on how much i feed her but like you said i have upped the intake of calcium w/o d3....and since she hasnt lost her appetite i imagine maybe i need to give her another week or so....have cham mommies ever laid eggs and still had an appetite? She has the nervous pacing around the cage, the coloration at times, and the belly! The only real thing that hasn't left her is the appetite...I've seen her in her sand bin a couple times diggin around but then she just leaves and goes frantically to another part of the cage....

My female veiled laid eggs several times without loosing her appetite. A couple of times I couldn't get her to show interest in laying until I put her in the trash can laying bin with no way out and after a couple of hours in the late afternoon she started to dig and she laid the next morning. They normally dig and lay in the late afternoon or evening and into the night and often don't finish until the next morning.

 

[DJBMURDER]

ok, that makes me feel a little bit better...maybe i should do that? i feel like besides maybe feeding her a little too much lately that ive been doing a good job supplementing her and so forth....i just dont know....her belly is huge! Do you think i should possibly get a trash bin and do it that way and see if I have any results? or should i wait a few days and see if she lays in her bucket in the cage? Im not sure how far along she is but Im PRETTY sure she will lay no later than the 18th but as soon as ANY DAY NOW!!!!

 

[jannb]

Have you posted any pictures of her? I can't remember seeing any. If I could see what she looks like from different angles and from the top that would be helpful.

It would probaly be a good idea to set up the trash can laying bin and try that in the next couple of days. Has she been mated?

 

[DJBMURDER]

yes she's been mated. and i probably will put her in a trash bin...i dont know what to do...what are signs of egg binding? any physical or other signs? these were the best pics i could get but i know she is prego and fertile she was just mated not too long ago before i bought her from a breeder and she has the classic little bulges above her hind legs and her belly is dragging like a pot bellied pig!

 

[jannb]

You got the pictures up fast. I'm on my cell with no computer untill tonight but I can tell you they normally lay right around 30 days after being mated. From what I can see she doesn't look that fat but she looks young. How old is she?

 

[DJBMURDER]

shes 14 months. my hands are just big. lol. but trust me, shes fat! she just flattened out in defense when i was holding her, ill try and post better pics of her tummy and the bulges she has

shes already laid clutch of eggs last season so i know she's proven breeder, this is just my first time with veileds and boy are they waayyy different than jacksons who seem to just one day randomly "plop" out the babies in a sac for lack of a better term, lol

 

[pssh]

She doesn't look very fat at all. Usually when they are ready to lay they can't flatten out and look eggless like she does.

 

[DJBMURDER]

heres some pics.... you sure she's not pregnant do you see the lumps behind her legs and how fat her belly is

 

[jannb]

She's not that big but I'm not saying that she's not carrying eggs. When was she mated? How long ago? Here's pictures of my female before and after.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/camille-before-after-28632/

 

[DJBMURDER]

she's definitely fat, but she hasn't gotten that skinny...she has the bulges...maybe she just isn't as far along as i think? I got her like 2-3 weeks ago and she was mated not too long before i got her...so im thinking maybe in the next week to 2 weeks she should be getting bigger? I mean she gets that fat and pudgy at times i just can't get good angle shots of her...or maybe its a small clutch? anyone else have any ideas? ...now im confused...the breeder said she was gravid?????

 

[DJBMURDER]

anyone? so after seeing pictures people think shes either A) not pregnant or B) not far along pregnant at at all? or C) Bearing a small clutch????? im so lost now....

 

[Trillian]

Did you manage any pictures? I'd say if she has egg-bulges, then she's pretty far along, but bear in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about. If it were me, I'd leave her in a garbage bin with a plant, as suggested earlier, and hope she gets the message. You said she was dragging her belly too? Sounds like she's big enough to be struggling to get around. Much better to play it safe, I think.

 

[DJBMURDER]

ya i posted good pictures, did u see them in my earlier posts? I tried to repost them but im new here and i guess you cant do that?

 

[Trillian]

Ignore me! I missed a page!